Rolling 'this is sexist' thread

SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS

Well, the incident didn't happen in private, did it? So why should Adria Richards keep her objections private? Besides, if she first went to the men or organizers privately and wasn't satisfied with their response, she'd be derided as some kind of extortionist if she told them 'fine, I'm gonna have to take this public'.

I've reported on people caught in the act of bullying while wearing a company shirt. Called the company rather than try to reach some sort of fake compromise with people who were assholes, because the only thing creating a problem between us was (wait for it) their behaviour. Were the bullies angry with me when I straight-up told them I'd reported them? Yes, of course they were, but I expected that the combination of belligerence and stupidity that underpinned their need to shit on other people also underpinned their denial of responsibility for the actions that brought us to that point.

"Can someone talk to these guys about their conduct?"

such a SERIOUSLY DANGEROUS request

what i'm hearing is: "why couldn't richards be more circumspect and ladylike before taking action? why didn't she employ less effective remedies first? as white men, don't these guys have a god-given RIGHT to save face once they're caught? isn't that in the u.s. constitution somewhere?"

Cant help what yr hearing

elmo totally otm. Also, to restate from upthread: "Why didn't she do what I, a white/man would have done?" "Why didn't she decide to use the same 'correct' strategies that I am equipped with/trained to use, like confrontation?"

I'm still amazed that one of the pieces of evidence used to show that Adria Richards is an unreasonable, divisive harpy who is looking for offense everywhere she goes is because she once objected to someone using porn metaphors in a professional presentation

Like, what the hell is wrong with these people?

adria richards is a misandrist who wants to take away your dick jokes and your gonzo porn, the danger is serious

Not everybody has the temperament to go all confrontational in public and feel confident of not being aggressed even more or shamed by their aggressor or other bad outcomes. Most of the time *I* don't, and I'm not exactly a shrinking water lily.

It might not seem "confrontational" to say, "That behavior is inappropriate/offensive. Could you please discontinue it?" but look at how offended THE INTERNET is by having its judgement questioned over this brouhaha and THE INTERNET WASN'T EVEN ONE OF THE PARTIES INVOLVED. That's the only evidence you need about how someone can flare up over even a meek request if it cuts across what they think they're entitled to.

Not sure who has suggested confrontation. Wouldnt do it myself, as a white man who can lift boxes ad grow a beard and everything.

There have been lots of responses along the lines of "Why didn't she just ask them to stop? Why can't she deal with the problem face-to-face? It's so passive-aggressive to appeal to authority" and so on, FYI.

I think the internet needs a refresher course on what passive-aggressive actually means.

the only thing "wrong" she did was not follow the guidelines stated by PyCon for reporting harassing behavior, yet PyCon staff still were able to handle the situation

This wouldn't even be a story if dude's company hadn't decided to terminate his employment, a decision Adria Richards neither forced them into nor publicly cosigned; in fact, she publicly stated she disagreed with dude's termination. This, of course, did not stop the braying horde from holding her personally responsible for dude losing his job, a mob so hopped up on their desire to take this woman down a peg that when dude identified himself and apologized publicly to her for offending her, they turned on him and started calling him names for the crime of showing empathy and remorse.

Yeah, in addition to all the victim-blaming there was more than a touch of 'she's uppity' - particularly by the woman who wrote about working with her on another conference.

^^^^ was gonna say there's a massive section of the tech commentariat who seem to be suffering intellectual blue-balls right now cos they're not "allowed" to say the word "uppity" and yet are so clearly desperate to do so.

lol I had written "this uppity woman" and then took it out because I didn't think it needed spelling out

I'll join ye happily in arguin against the entire disgusting internet, yknow

spelling out the obvious is my stock in trade, Dan...

sorry, but that's bullshit. there were guidelines for how conference attendees were to behave. there were conference organizers tasked with making sure those guidelines were followed. she tweeted an identifying photo of the guy in violation and tagged it so the organizers would see it. it worked, and they pulled richards & the other guy aside to deal with the matter.

this wasn't justice via twitter mob, it was an extremely focused and effective appeal to the appropriate authority. that's not exactly "punk rock"

― ampersand cooper black (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, April 3, 2013 7:18 AM (6 hours ago)

this is still sort of my thing (i don't care about the picture thing, i think it's weird but i don't think it was 'wrong') - are we outraged because he said something sexist or because he broke the sacred rule of tech conferences, which we all care so deeply about. i suppose the answer for most is 'both' but my position was always "oh, that's the comment that started all this?"

My degree of offense to what he said is immaterial. The bigger point is that this specific conference had set out explicit rules of conduct precisely because it wanted to be run as a welcoming, inclusive event and this dude with his dumb comments broke them. She was well within her right to report him and the blowback she got as a result is ridiculous.

i mean what if one of the rules of the tech conference was u had to wear a tie if youre a guy. it'd seem p drastic to report them for breaking the rules. so the whole "she was just alerting the proper authorities to rule breakers" is kind of a red herring; the issue is whether dongle jokes are particularly oppressive. given that i'm approaching this issue from a position of privilege i could respect the opinion of someone else who finds it not OK. i just probably wouldn't want to hang out with adria she seems like kind of a drag tbh

xp

excellent! another priceless white guy perspective!!

that's exactly what this situation really needed!!!

adria seems like a drag

thank you for your insight!!

spectacular false equivalency, good work

probably wouldn't want to hang out with adria she seems like kind of a drag tbh

Hahahah omg you/they/people JUST CANNOT STOP, can they?

i'm glad we have someone itt to tell us what this is REALLY about

p.s. someone please explain why men feel SO oppressed by having to wear neckties and why i've seen it brought up on both the rolling racism AND sexism threads today

http://7citieswitness.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Larry-Sanders.gif

I've never had to wear a necktie except to weddings and funerals and high school prom.

sometimes I'm bummed that I don't have more occasions to wear neckties to

If neckties and, I don't know, affirmative action (in scare quotes, natch) are the most noticeable ways that white/men are oppressed, so much so that they always want to tell us about how they know from oppression because NECKTIES, I just do not know. No, wait, I do know: stop your mouth from even moving.

the necktie is, like, a NOOSE, maaan.

I'm just trying to imagine the environment where someone could feel unsettled and unsafe by catching sight of someone not wearing a necktie

i mean what if one of the rules of the tech conference was u had to wear a tie if youre a guy. it'd seem p drastic to report them for breaking the rules.

can't get over this comment, it's so perfect

The bigger point is that this specific conference had set out explicit rules of conduct precisely because it wanted to be run as a welcoming, inclusive event and this dude with his dumb comments broke them during a talk about making the industry more welcoming to women.

lol yeah forgot that little detail

p.s. lmao @ u if you don't think men AND women aren't routinely chewed out for being inappropriately attired in the workplace or when representing their employers off-site, professionals of a certain caliber are absolutely ruthless about that sort of thing.

don't get me wrong, professional dress codes aren't something i endorse but gimme a break with the faux-naif "what sort of monster would criticize a dude for not wearing a tie" line

is it really so inconceivable that, idk, many people itt might make a 'dongle' joke to one of their friends during a boring conference

my fear is saying something offensive without realizing it due to my particular "privilege" (white, male, heterosexual, etc)-- i like to think i am pretty conscious about what i say and when but by the very nature of these things they can sneak up on you. i hope in those circumstances someone could bring it to my attention and my apology would be accepted.

it's a bit of a red-herring that there's some idea of a "thought police" or someone wanting to dictate or control other people's conversations. it's more about showing mutual respect and understanding and trying your damnedest to be inclusive.

this dude getting fired or not is up to his employer i think, but from what i can tell it doesn't seem like he was being very thoughtful or careful about his words. and in that particular environment that's an important skill.

ha you guys are...not this dense, i've posted here for like 5 years now, i know this for a fact.

the point of the analogy was to point out that no 1 cares about the "sanctity of tech conference guidelines", not to make a stealth men's rights assertion

all this hubbub about neckties is weird

so, what? is richards somehow at fault because she didn't realize that the conference guidelines are only there for appearances' sake, and that nobody is actually expected to abide by them? so, uh, shame on her for invoking them? what on earth

is it really so inconceivable that, idk, many people itt might make a 'dongle' joke to one of their friends during a boring conference

If you aren't a complete dumbass, you know better than to do this; I am known as King Dick Joke on this board and I have never done this at any conference/training session I've attended, including ones where I've gone with coworkers who were my roommates at the time or coworkers who considered me to be close enough to invite to their kids' christenings.

I say this as someone who has engaged in inappropriate banter with coworkers of both sexes during lunch breaks or after work; said inappropriate banter always took place amongst a closed circle away from the general work environment and stopped at anyone's request; also, people frequently apologized if a joke crossed a line. There was an underlying respect and an understanding of each others' perspective that allowed us to take liberties in our humor with each other, and more importantly it would stop if it began to bother someone even if that someone wasn't the target. I don't see that situation as analogous to here; furthermore, there were other groups in the company who went WAY over the line in multiple ways, to the point where there's one dude in particular who to this day probably doesn't know that I consider him to be a racist monster and a dealbreaker to any professional situation I may consider in the future.

I am known as King Dick Joke on this board

(all of ilx silently nods in affirmation)

djp otm

There was an underlying respect and an understanding of each others' perspective that allowed us to take liberties in our humor with each other

Why don't you think this is exactly how the two dudes having a private conversation adjacent to Adria Richards felt?

having been refreshed on what large groups of developers are like, I am now kind of amazed that this didn't end up much worse

basically I watched a small group present an overview of a cool new project and several dudes kept asking them why they did things that way, why they didn't use this other superior technique that the questioner was familiar with, and whether they thought this project would actually work

it's a small miracle that anything resembling civil discourse happens at conferences

many people itt might make a 'dongle' joke to one of their friends during a boring conference

If it were a professional conference, attended as part of one's professional job, then no, this is not an option. end of discussion.

At such a conference you are surrounded not by your work buddies, but by other conference attendees. This is blindingly apparent when you are sitting in a large conference room with hundreds of others. The barest comprehension of professionalism and collegiality screams that this is the wrong place for 'dongle' jokes.