Rolling 'this is sexist' thread

if I were a woman at these conferences I'd have a chip on my shoulder, too, considering we're still only a couple years out from some dude making "this code is hot" jokes punctuated by a slide that was just pictures of women in bikinis or w/e

on the one hand, I think everyone has the right to work in the tech industry and not have to feel threatened by dumb sexual comments & jokes. otoh, lol, dongles

Yes. I was half-heartedly writing a post saying that the reason these "jokes" exist is that public spaces/tech world/humor that's out there to consume are very often profoundly sexist and it leads to ANYONE thinking that this kind of commenting is even BASELINE ACCEPTABLE, much less makes you a totally cool dude. But it seemed like a lot of work and I haven't had any tea yet.

Sorry, the "Yes" was to ryan.

I think what bothers me most about this sort of thing is wanting a little more clarity on what is absolutely verboten. I'm an almost pathologically polite person in the workplace, so I'm rarely in a situation where I have to worry, but I've crossed the line once or twice and it can be confusing, especially when there are women in the office who make comments I wouldn't dare to make. It's also because I work with a bunch of old lawyers.

I think the expression "chip on her shoulder" is pretty unhelpful here, though--unless it was taken from her writing or s/thing? I haven't followed all the links.

here's a hint on what is verboten: if you suddenly discover you have been talking about genitals, you have likely crossed a line

Says DJP.

dongle j. penis

I'd actually carry a cinder block around on my shoulder, tbh.

I mean, in the brief window years and years and years ago when I was single and in college, I had paralyzing fear of talking to women I didn't know who found attractive, partially because I didn't want to be rejected but mostly because I didn't want to be accused of sexual harassment, which given my incredibly crude sense of humor felt very much like a justifiable fear. Shortly after I began dating my future wife, I started hanging out with her female friends and realized something I already knew from my circle of friends back home but had forgotten; barriers come down when you get to know people and being willing to apologize and not repeat offenses if you cross someone's line is the definition of being a polite person. Furthermore, only an asshole allows whatever weird gross things they find funny affect the way they treat other people. If you give people the type of respect you want, you will likely get it; those who don't return it are the ones you should steer clear of, and it's that foundation of respect and understanding that gives you the ability to take light license with propriety because everyone involved understands that the communication isn't serious or in earnest, and that you don't actually think less of the person you are saying these socially inappropriate things to. You don't get to be That Person without putting in the prep work.

in summation, lol dicks r funny <-- a joke 12 years in the making

Lady found something uncomfortable and reported it. Any beef should be addressed to her employer.

Er, his employer

otm

I think I agree with you there, yes. But whether or not you deserve to be publicly pilloried for failing to realise such things is different. Having said that, it looks like her initial tweets were directed to the staff requesting action on their part, as opposed to the initially linked tweet, which is more of a public shaming.

I definitely agree with people's observations that tech environments are not welcoming to women, and that that can escalate the feeling of hostility coming from otherwise innocuous comments. I am also hating the comments that say "oh, if you weren't so x about it then I might agree", because that is such bullshit regulation of female behaviour.

gregory bateson says all communications are really communication relationships (and so a hungry meowing cat is really saying "dependency!")--and i think that insight really applies in this case. those jokes can communicate warmth and intimacy, friendship, trust, and then power, aggression, and hate.

xposts to djp there, sorry.

xpost: communication about relationships.

judging from the comments it seems that 98% of all men absolutely HATE any suggestion that they should be more circumspect about where & when they try to deploy dumb bad sex jokes aimed at gaining the approval of other boring men

Very well said, DJP!

I may not have actually read the "chip on (her) shoulder" phrase, but it's the stance that a lot of commenters seemed to take, which she did an excellent job of explaining that it was the social and not the personal she was interested in. I think that having a heightened sense of alert, which is exactly what people are trying to paint her with in a negative manner, would actually be a valid thing to have when these conferences have been historically hostile environments.

"what do you mean I can't make crass puns about genitalia, WHAT ELSE am i supposed to talk about"

OF COURSE I HAVE A CHIP ON MY SHOULDER WHEN YOU KEEP CHISELLING ME THERE.

There's a lot to what dan says, there's a difference btwn saying something to someone directly, saying something about someone and them overhearing it, saying something about someone else and a third party overhearing it, etc.

unless these comments were hardline objectionable then imo tweeting their pic was overreaction, firing them is obv total overreaction.

it's actually a bucket of stupid remarks, I've been collecting them my whole career

"what do you mean I can't make crass puns about genitalia, WHAT ELSE am i supposed to talk about"

Sadly this is pretty much my situation in places where I don't know anyone. It's either dick jokes or krautrock, and I know which most people would prefer.

The expression "chip on (the) shoulder" means that the person is carrying a grudge or is prejudiced in their interpretation of innocuous things because of their own experience...and there's an inherent judgment that the person is WRONG to be holding the grudge, that THEY making an error. So it's a poor choice of words when a woman asking for civility in a professional sphere is being called out for it.

xp that took so long to type out that you've all surpassed it already but anyway!

i support public shaming for talking about krautrock

the other thing getting lost in the description of this whole thing is that, as far as I can tell from the accounts floating around, she turned around to have a conversation with one of these dudes and the guy who got fired joined in by making stupid sex jokes, which he then kept doing after she disengaged

so, it's not like she was sitting there and overheard someone saying something gross; dude introduced himself into her conversation with something gross

ugh I just spent too long reading about this instead of doing any lol coding and I still don't know where I stand on this

I mean out of context it sounds an overreaction but I've certainly been in situations in the er "tech community" where such a remark would be, you know, straws, camels; and no, the actual joke itself doesn't seem that offensive but it's definitely immature (this guy is a father of 3?) and this brand of humour can be quite othering.

I do think it's not cool to take photos of other people to put on twitter with a note that they did something you didn't like, and that instead of doing so with a hashtag you hope the conference organisers will see, maybe you should just email said organisers privately, at least as a first resort? But yeah, my own biases etc etc

(off-topic, but I was livid the other week when I got photographed in public and said "hey I hope I wasn't in that photo" to the photographer who just stared right past me as if there had been a strange noise but nothing capable of sentient thought was in sight. When I think of all the subreddits my fat late-for-doctor's-appointment likeness might be gathering negative comments on right now...)

(about a billion xposts which I'm not going to read until after posting or there'll be a billion more)

Adria OTM in the comments: "They felt safe being anonymous in a crowd. I changed that power dynamic and this is what the uproar is really about."

you would think, given the special snowflakism of 90s/00s child-rearing, people would be celebrating the realization that they are never really anonymous

xp True.

Xp to djp, thks, then yeah he's a dick, still disagree with twitter as public complaints mechanism tho

I mean this is probably a side-effect of living in the US as a minority and actually understanding the ramifications of slavery and how it directly impacted my family tree but anyone who expects a right to privacy in this country is deluded

in orbit, we're talking past again. I used the phrase because that is exactly the standpoint these people are projecting on her. I do not believe she has "a chip on her shoulder," these individuals are saying exactly what you defined. I'm saying that their accusations hold no weight to me, because what they paint as overreaction I say is sadly needed.

i hope ppl can understand how "she should have confronted them directly first / she reacted the wrong way" is incredibly patronizing argument right

But, yes, I'm not allowed to reclaim this for anyone, sure

I would like to think confronting them directly, or even just going back to the staff and saying "these guys said something offensive" would have done something, but I think that maybe letting this dialogue play out where it's publicly visible has some definite pros

I know you don't believe that!! Jeez, you're not a monster. Just that even bringing the language into a discussion sets up a straw man, that she IS prejudiced in her interpretation even if you support her. She might be or she might not be, but we don't need to know that to rule sexual comments indefensible.

true, no need to give the haters any weight by using their language

Xp to djp, thks, then yeah he's a dick, still disagree with twitter as public complaints mechanism tho

I don't think disagreeing with her posting to Twitter is inherently wrong or problematic. I do think that different people handle situations in different ways and it's very telling to me that the dude who got fired is more upset about his characterization than the fact that his picture was posted.

Dude was a moron who should have shut up. I am semi-shocked, though, that any credible US company wouldn't put him through the probation wringer before termination, particularly since that's the type of HR policy expressly designed to deal with situations like this, which points back to this dude being Villain of the Week and his company being the Big Bad that both fostered his behavior and then terminated him over it with little to no warning, unless of course dude was already on probation for some bullshit like this in which case lol.

Surely there's a small gap btwn 100% cheerleading and 'incredibly patronizing' elmo?

i don't really have a problem with twitter-shaming someone over a bad joke, regardless. but also i have no idea how this would spiral beyond this. its not coming from the podium or anything, and dumb puns are a huuuge world away from really violating any serious code of conduct.

so there's a v. important tool for theorem proving out of france that is called 'coq' and pronounced just how one would imagine. it is actually a clever pun on someone's name plus a tradition of naming certain software after animals plus a common abbreviation for the 'calculus of constructions (coc)'. there are conferences that are full of stuff done with coq, etc. and it is just impossible to have conversations about this without completely inadvertently introducing dumb jokes all over the place. there's like an elaborate etiquette about how to try to avoid doing it too much, and since its so easy to accidentally say something risque, the idea of doing it on purpose is really frowned on since it basically shows you haven't been working with this tool long enough to be sick of those jokes. but at the same point, if someone does say something accidentally quite dirty, there's no shame in sort of making some gesture towards pointing it out.

the same thing happens often to mathemeticians who work with p-adic numbers, since there's a thing that people refer to as the 'p-ness' of the number, and it takes freaking forever to get over laughing when it comes up. that one is arguably easier to describe differently, but i think people even when they don't find it hilarious, like silly names, and so they really don't try to.

To confront ppl, esp in public, you have to either feel powerful enough that you feel confident of winning, or you have to be so desperate that you don't have anything to lose. The situ is by definition not the first, and NO ONE should be in the second in a professional capacity. Or in life, one hopes, but... To suggest that the "correct" or better solution to a problem is the confrontation one assumes that the person has, and *feels they have*, enough power to be taken seriously, backed up by bystanders, which is assuming a lot considering the assailant felt comfortable making the joke in the FIRST damn place.

I was going to try to guess whether the fired guy worked at a larger company or a start-up, but the gold sponsor list is huge: https://us.pycon.org/2013/sponsors/

idk, i mean if i were at a tech conference i would think posting a hashtagged tweet would be a pretty effective way to get the organizers' attention, and it worked. she used the resources available to her to address the issue and to not further disrupt the event she was attending

putting the burden of responsibility on ANYONE to confront & police the people who make them uncomfortable is a grossly unfair stanard imho.

in orbit OTM xp

occasionally people will joke about meetings devoted to coq as a 'coq-fest' but you can basically only make that joke once or twice a year and nobody is allowed to do more than politely chuckle.

Surely there's a small gap btwn 100% cheerleading and 'incredibly patronizing' elmo?

I recognize my ego well enough to know that most if not all of the time when I am thinking "that person shouldn't have done that" what I actually mean is "I wouldn't have done it that way" because obviously the way I handle things is 100% correct and unimpeachable and ppl who deviate from my eminently sensible plans are really taking their lives into their own hands

I also recognize how much of that is informed by social construct and how accidents of birth and social status have placed me in different places in that social construct depending on the audience because I try very hard not to let my ego make me into a raging dick

the person has, and *feels they have*, enough power to be taken seriously, backed up by bystanders

Actually I should have added, "or will make the behavior/abuse WORSE by confronting it" because sometimes the worst fear is that the thing you already find embarrassing, offensive, or intimidating will be ratcheted up by your complaint. Which as you can imagine happens COMMONLY.