Rolling 'this is sexist' thread

T/F: this wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been sporting smug beards

reading the responses this woman is getting on some of the links associated with this, half the tech industry needs to be fired over this

I don't get what forking repos means, but making a joke about big dongles doesn't seem sexist in itself to me, it could well just be harmlessly silly. But she's not very specific about what was actually said and to whom - there are definitely ways in which it could be inappropriate enough to call out. If it was during a female speaker, and it was consistently undermining the speech, with comments like "I'd show her my big dongle if you know what I mean", then yes, call it out, it's sexist. Still not sure posting a photo to twitter is the best way to go even in that case, but it would be more understandable.

xp - yeah, now looking at some male responses, and THEY are grossly sexist.

Perfectly acceptable to publicly out jerks.

apparently the joke made was "I'd like to fork his repo!" which the joke-maker then went on to claim had no sexual connotation on one of those links despite sexual connotation being the sole reason why that format of joke came into being in the first place

I don't think going "lol, big dongles" is the sign of being a jerk, though. But then I have an incredibly puerile sense of humour.

Their employer might have overreacted, but if they were there on company business, they were sitting behind what appears to be one of the only women in the room and making sexually-charged "jokes" probably violates their employer's code of conduct. She is totally within her rights to do what she did, because I really don't think confronting them would do anything constructive other than get the kind of nasty responses she's received on twitter and in comments.

Were it me, I'd probably turn around and give them a dirty look or tell them to knock it off, but they'd more likely see me as a peer, not because I'm a developer and around their age, but because I'm male.

Writes about it on her blog.
http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/

Get the impression that it wouldn't have been an issue had the jokes actually been funny.

i doubt dude was fired *for being sexist* but more likely because he failed to represent his employer in a professional manner at an industry event, which is a pretty solid grounds for dismissal imho.

My first question isn't "Is this sexist?", it's "Is he 5?"

So much of the commenting is, as usual, people projecting their biases on the situation, but one of the guys in the picture managed to stick with it and say that she was within her rights and that he was sorry, at which point she wrote that she felt him being fired was an overreaction and that she'd be glad to speak to his now ex-employer. Which is great because the hacker news crowd piles on and then tells him he's wrong.

Anyone who dug into her updates and made some sort of "but, she plays Cards Against Humanity later at the conference, how can she claim to be offended?!?" comment should probably die in a fire

this is tough since the harmless seeming beavis and buttheadedness of the jokes (as described so far) possibly masks how in context (and especially when only a few women present at the whole thing) those sort of jokes are indeed aggressive towards the women present.

@renejsum thank you. I did it for future generations who will attend as well

if I were a woman at these conferences I'd have a chip on my shoulder, too, considering we're still only a couple years out from some dude making "this code is hot" jokes punctuated by a slide that was just pictures of women in bikinis or w/e

on the one hand, I think everyone has the right to work in the tech industry and not have to feel threatened by dumb sexual comments & jokes. otoh, lol, dongles

Yes. I was half-heartedly writing a post saying that the reason these "jokes" exist is that public spaces/tech world/humor that's out there to consume are very often profoundly sexist and it leads to ANYONE thinking that this kind of commenting is even BASELINE ACCEPTABLE, much less makes you a totally cool dude. But it seemed like a lot of work and I haven't had any tea yet.

Sorry, the "Yes" was to ryan.

I think what bothers me most about this sort of thing is wanting a little more clarity on what is absolutely verboten. I'm an almost pathologically polite person in the workplace, so I'm rarely in a situation where I have to worry, but I've crossed the line once or twice and it can be confusing, especially when there are women in the office who make comments I wouldn't dare to make. It's also because I work with a bunch of old lawyers.

I think the expression "chip on her shoulder" is pretty unhelpful here, though--unless it was taken from her writing or s/thing? I haven't followed all the links.

here's a hint on what is verboten: if you suddenly discover you have been talking about genitals, you have likely crossed a line

Says DJP.

dongle j. penis

I'd actually carry a cinder block around on my shoulder, tbh.

I mean, in the brief window years and years and years ago when I was single and in college, I had paralyzing fear of talking to women I didn't know who found attractive, partially because I didn't want to be rejected but mostly because I didn't want to be accused of sexual harassment, which given my incredibly crude sense of humor felt very much like a justifiable fear. Shortly after I began dating my future wife, I started hanging out with her female friends and realized something I already knew from my circle of friends back home but had forgotten; barriers come down when you get to know people and being willing to apologize and not repeat offenses if you cross someone's line is the definition of being a polite person. Furthermore, only an asshole allows whatever weird gross things they find funny affect the way they treat other people. If you give people the type of respect you want, you will likely get it; those who don't return it are the ones you should steer clear of, and it's that foundation of respect and understanding that gives you the ability to take light license with propriety because everyone involved understands that the communication isn't serious or in earnest, and that you don't actually think less of the person you are saying these socially inappropriate things to. You don't get to be That Person without putting in the prep work.

in summation, lol dicks r funny <-- a joke 12 years in the making

Lady found something uncomfortable and reported it. Any beef should be addressed to her employer.

Er, his employer

otm

I think I agree with you there, yes. But whether or not you deserve to be publicly pilloried for failing to realise such things is different. Having said that, it looks like her initial tweets were directed to the staff requesting action on their part, as opposed to the initially linked tweet, which is more of a public shaming.

I definitely agree with people's observations that tech environments are not welcoming to women, and that that can escalate the feeling of hostility coming from otherwise innocuous comments. I am also hating the comments that say "oh, if you weren't so x about it then I might agree", because that is such bullshit regulation of female behaviour.

gregory bateson says all communications are really communication relationships (and so a hungry meowing cat is really saying "dependency!")--and i think that insight really applies in this case. those jokes can communicate warmth and intimacy, friendship, trust, and then power, aggression, and hate.

xposts to djp there, sorry.

xpost: communication about relationships.

judging from the comments it seems that 98% of all men absolutely HATE any suggestion that they should be more circumspect about where & when they try to deploy dumb bad sex jokes aimed at gaining the approval of other boring men

Very well said, DJP!

I may not have actually read the "chip on (her) shoulder" phrase, but it's the stance that a lot of commenters seemed to take, which she did an excellent job of explaining that it was the social and not the personal she was interested in. I think that having a heightened sense of alert, which is exactly what people are trying to paint her with in a negative manner, would actually be a valid thing to have when these conferences have been historically hostile environments.

"what do you mean I can't make crass puns about genitalia, WHAT ELSE am i supposed to talk about"

OF COURSE I HAVE A CHIP ON MY SHOULDER WHEN YOU KEEP CHISELLING ME THERE.

There's a lot to what dan says, there's a difference btwn saying something to someone directly, saying something about someone and them overhearing it, saying something about someone else and a third party overhearing it, etc.

unless these comments were hardline objectionable then imo tweeting their pic was overreaction, firing them is obv total overreaction.

it's actually a bucket of stupid remarks, I've been collecting them my whole career

"what do you mean I can't make crass puns about genitalia, WHAT ELSE am i supposed to talk about"

Sadly this is pretty much my situation in places where I don't know anyone. It's either dick jokes or krautrock, and I know which most people would prefer.

The expression "chip on (the) shoulder" means that the person is carrying a grudge or is prejudiced in their interpretation of innocuous things because of their own experience...and there's an inherent judgment that the person is WRONG to be holding the grudge, that THEY making an error. So it's a poor choice of words when a woman asking for civility in a professional sphere is being called out for it.

xp that took so long to type out that you've all surpassed it already but anyway!

i support public shaming for talking about krautrock

the other thing getting lost in the description of this whole thing is that, as far as I can tell from the accounts floating around, she turned around to have a conversation with one of these dudes and the guy who got fired joined in by making stupid sex jokes, which he then kept doing after she disengaged

so, it's not like she was sitting there and overheard someone saying something gross; dude introduced himself into her conversation with something gross

ugh I just spent too long reading about this instead of doing any lol coding and I still don't know where I stand on this

I mean out of context it sounds an overreaction but I've certainly been in situations in the er "tech community" where such a remark would be, you know, straws, camels; and no, the actual joke itself doesn't seem that offensive but it's definitely immature (this guy is a father of 3?) and this brand of humour can be quite othering.

I do think it's not cool to take photos of other people to put on twitter with a note that they did something you didn't like, and that instead of doing so with a hashtag you hope the conference organisers will see, maybe you should just email said organisers privately, at least as a first resort? But yeah, my own biases etc etc

(off-topic, but I was livid the other week when I got photographed in public and said "hey I hope I wasn't in that photo" to the photographer who just stared right past me as if there had been a strange noise but nothing capable of sentient thought was in sight. When I think of all the subreddits my fat late-for-doctor's-appointment likeness might be gathering negative comments on right now...)

(about a billion xposts which I'm not going to read until after posting or there'll be a billion more)

Adria OTM in the comments: "They felt safe being anonymous in a crowd. I changed that power dynamic and this is what the uproar is really about."

you would think, given the special snowflakism of 90s/00s child-rearing, people would be celebrating the realization that they are never really anonymous

xp True.

Xp to djp, thks, then yeah he's a dick, still disagree with twitter as public complaints mechanism tho

I mean this is probably a side-effect of living in the US as a minority and actually understanding the ramifications of slavery and how it directly impacted my family tree but anyone who expects a right to privacy in this country is deluded

in orbit, we're talking past again. I used the phrase because that is exactly the standpoint these people are projecting on her. I do not believe she has "a chip on her shoulder," these individuals are saying exactly what you defined. I'm saying that their accusations hold no weight to me, because what they paint as overreaction I say is sadly needed.

i hope ppl can understand how "she should have confronted them directly first / she reacted the wrong way" is incredibly patronizing argument right