should there be more tipping or less tipping

i don't really think of tipping as a correction to a substandard wage. not all people working in the service industry make awful wages but i wouldn't devalue their tip if i knew they were well-paid, and i would think that someone who did was being perverse. i like tipping, feels gentlemanly or something

Mordy OTM.

Paychecks should compensate workers, including service workers, which means they def ought to be higher in the USA than they currently are for almost every job, but esp restaurant jobs. tips should still happen on top of those higher paychecks, but more as a thanks for good service than a social obligation and economic necessity.

so yeah waiters should be making a real minimum wage but also minimum wage should be raised to actually reflect inflation over the past like four decades too

worth mentioning that service minimum wage has hardly been adjusted for inflation at all compared to normal minimum wage

the argument i've used vs vocal non-tippers is like that of wearing a dark suit at a funeral. i know it's such a huuuge pain and you didn't like the guy much and you aren't legitimately that sad, but, fuck you, wear the suit

it's a comment box slam dunk!

"and they never will"

This isnt some crazy dream yknow

Xp zach, it was more a "the US system where the onus is on tips to make a living wage is appallingly dumb" which i hopefully expressed sufficiently well there for ya not to worry about my personal habits

there's some horse-cart business going on w/ tipping, since the practice of tipping was i believe justification for setting the minimum wage for those jobs lower than the min-wage generally

i guess the slamdunk case for tipping is that capitalism exploits all labor so why not keep that screwing as explicit as possible? everyone should only get paid in tips and the hard heels of capitalist boots.

this is kinda another subject but in a world where say the govt mandated $15/h wages for servers I think you'd see a ton of iPads (etc) in lower end restaurants doing more and more of the order-side work. we might regardless.

wingtips imo

i'm really against tipping as this ugly practice that demeans everybody but if you offered the choice of "we're going to raise your salary and prices to compensate but that means you're going to get fully taxed on it" vs. "you can sneakily declare less tips than you actually got." no one's going to take #1.

pay the poor buggers a basic wage and stop forcing them to behave like performing seals

surm to thread

eh people should probably pay their taxes

what if we were like: "you can get paid the full value of your work but we will fire you and have an ipad robot do your job instead" OR "you can get paid shit and be grateful you have a job in 8% unemployment, serf," which do you think ppl would take?

http://i.imgur.com/ghKbViy.jpg

well it depends if they are a robot

The assumption that increasing to a living wage somehow stops tips dead has not rly been borne out in the first world, folks

I have an idea, we can write a law to make tipping progressive like taxes, when you go to a restaurant your tax bracket will be encoded into your credit card and your tip will be based on your tax rate

people who generally need tips probably shouldn't pay taxes on it.

I figure a waiter at per se will probably start clearing 6 figures then, even the busboys, but somebody who works at Golden Dragon's Empire Buffet will probably fail to clear $10k =(

if minimum wage became mandatory restaurants would just charge more for food like they do everywhere else in the world iirc

To pay the wages of their staff? Jesus, the very fukn thought huh

Do you tip carpet cleaners?

minimum wage is mandatory in CA I think. Still tipping going on. I think the only real way tipping can go away is if enough people agree to tip a constant amount regardless of service, and it became enough of a social expectation that it would be equivalent to a mandatory service charge.

Having worked as a server in a high end restaurant for the last couple of years, I feel obliged to contribute to this topic. Servers definitely make out better under a tipping system than they would if you replaced tips with some kind of skill commensurate hourly wage. However, the truth is, if you actually replaced the tipping system with a skill commensurate hourly wage, almost nobody would bother to be a server. Cause for that kind of money, you could just do something easy and relatively stress free like retail or back of the house or like "tip jar" kind of jobs. I've worked all of these kinds of jobs, and being a server is definitely the hardest, but it's also the only one in which you can make pretty good money, thanks to the tipping system. And this is even allowing for the free-rider problem of bad tippers.

Thanks peacock.

Can you maybe postulate why eg uk restaurants manage to find servers?

there aren't actually any restaurants in the UK, just bars and waitroses and tescos

off licenses iirc

The assumption that increasing to a living wage somehow stops tips dead has not rly been borne out in the first world, folks

^ ^ ^

lol America

sp to darraghmac

Something is obviously very different outside the United States and I don't know exactly what it is. So no I can't postulate, but I know there must be an explanation.

I do know that I don't know any servers that would do this job for less than $20/hr, and I can't imagine the tipping system being replaced with that kind of wage in America.

however people define 'living wage' it's prob not California's 7.50 / h so really any other min wage in America

I know lots of people who would do any non-sex industry job for 20/h

Fair enough i dunno how that works out relative to ave income or w/e over there, but ppl queue for those jobs here atm on an hourly income (less tips!) that, at a guess, doesnt clear half the avg industrial wage

and any sex industry job for free amirite???

everyone should tip me for my great posts on ILX about tipping

I give 10% of my earnings to god etc

a lot of places pool tips (and I'm assuming that increases the likelihood the full amount will be reported) but I'm a big fan of pay by CC/tip in cash just in case.

also something to consider is that if you didn't have a tipping system, it could become easier for the waitstaff; instead of only assigning one waiter per table, you could have like a free-floating system where any table can flag down any waiter for service, you could have waitstaff whose only job it was is to bring food to a table and to clear tables, etc.

iow the role of the busboy could be greatly expanded

*just revealed to ILX that I've never waited a table in my life*

but i only want to be served by brad with the cute eyes

Wait

If i want something in a restaurant in the US icve to wait for a partic server?

Are you serious

sorta just drawing on my experience in having eaten at restaurants where there was no tipping. the food came out just as quickly! and it was great food! and I was able to order extra drinks and appetizers with little hassle! and I didn't leave a tip! I didn't leave a tip!

it creeps me out that five guys has a tip jar but in-n-out doesn't. I'm not sure who is right.

I've never worked in a place that pooled tips, but it seems pretty ideal as long as you trust your co-workers. I can only imagine it would reduce a lot of the anxiety that comes with the job.

I do know that I don't know any servers that would do this job for less than $20/hr, and I can't imagine the tipping system being replaced with that kind of wage in America.

I don't know how it would shake out if we went to a salary system. It would hurt the good waiters at 'nice' places the most - a flyover state place that's now $50 for 2 people on average probably isn't going to raise prices enough to pay waiters $20/hour. Applebee's/et al. probably couldn't find waitstaff at or near minimum wage who could run the restaurant effectively and couldn't raise prices because who the fuck is going to Applebee's when they're now $50/couple?

fuck applebees. they can go to chez panisse (18% mandatory service charge -- suck it!)

also something to consider is that if you didn't have a tipping system, it could become easier for the waitstaff; instead of only assigning one waiter per table, you could have like a free-floating system where any table can flag down any waiter for service, you could have waitstaff whose only job it was is to bring food to a table and to clear tables, etc.

if we could tip ilxors w/ bitcoins for good posts, this site would improve dramatically

or at least give them some of that sweet banner ad cashflow

"tipping is the only way you can give/receive money to/from virtual strangers without it being weird"

nope nope, this is always weird. it makes every act of kindness or decency subject to market incentive while all parties have to conspire to pretend it doesn't. straight up just giving money to strangers by comparison is a breeze.

is kickstarter really just a form of tipping

i tip 17.5% in restaurants just cuz that's the math i like to do in my head.

I want to get into a meeting with some venture capitalists and offer them t-shirts as return on their investment. "If you invest a quarter of a million dollars, you will receive this company t-shirt. If you invest one half of one million dollars, I will eat lunch with you and two of your friends."

"c'mon. be a dude. it's kickstarter grandpa!"

yah kickstarter is way closer to just straight up giving strangers money than tipping.

esp if they don't end up actually giving you the t-shirt or having lunch with you.

a fried of a friend was trying to turn his food truck into a restaurant on kickstarter. they were offering meals at the restaurant (at what would've been a hefty markup) as the return. put a business plan together and get some actual investors. hate kickstarter sometimes.

in asia, tipping doesn't happen. and, in most places, service kinda sucks pretty bad. otoh, i have several friends who wait tables in america, and they make pretty good money for it, even when you factor in the rare dickwad who doesn't tip. and service in america tends to be way better than in, say, singapore, where they get (shitty) regular paychecks instead.

so, tipping - let's keep it.

if we could tip ilxors w/ bitcoins for good posts, this site would improve dramatically

they have this system at metafilter, and it goes a long way towards keeping things considered, civil and interesting

whoa really how much money can you make

if this catches on some nabisco type dude can make a career out of being a good message board poster

perhaps i misunderstood the meaning of "bitcoins" on mefi it's "favorites" and is basically nothing more than warm fuzzies, sorry for the confusion. still nothing like getting positive feedback! it's not entirely unlike tipping

Bitcoins are an "actual" "currency"

You can use em to buy drugs on the internet

i would be the BEST POSTER EVER if it would allow me to buy drugs on the internet.

"in asia, tipping doesn't happen. and, in most places, service kinda sucks pretty bad."
I haven't eaten in enough of asia or america to say conclusively, but I suspect that controlled for most factors, you're going to get better service in asia, and america really can't hold a claim over providing better welfare for its workers at least over asian countries with nationalized public health services. I'd agree that mefi is generally a better environment than reddit, but reddit also has "tipping", as does yahoo answers and they are generally pretty awful. I'd suspect mefi might even have been worsened by the introduction of this fake tipping if there was a pre and post-tipping era.

On the other hand, I do feel people on social networks ought to receive a cut of whatever ad money facebook et. al are making off them, but that's more of a "reparations" thing than "incentiviziivizing"

Gonna start a thread for the mods to tell us what % of posts we're getting fp'd for, reverse tipping score

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

no ilx consensus for blah blah shockah

Experiments:

That’s one reason we pay attention when a restaurant tries another way, as Sushi Yasuda in Manhattan started to do two months ago. Raising most of its prices, it appended this note to credit card slips: “Following the custom in Japan, Sushi Yasuda’s service staff are fully compensated by their salary. Therefore gratuities are not accepted.”

Sushi Yasuda joins other restaurants that have done away with tips, replacing them with either a surcharge (Atera and Chef’s Table at Brooklyn Fare in New York; Next and Alinea in Chicago; Coi and Chez Panisse in the San Francisco Bay Area) or prices that include the cost of service (Per Se in New York and the French Laundry in Yountville, Calif.).

The chef Tom Colicchio is considering service-included pricing at one of his New York restaurants, paying servers “an hourly rate that would be consistent with what they make now,” he said. “I think it makes perfect sense. I’m not sure my staff is going to think it makes perfect sense.”

These restaurants are numerous enough and important enough to suggest that a tip-reform movement is under way. On the other hand, they are few enough and exceptional enough to suggest that the movement may remain very small, and move very slowly.

Public NYC Taxicab Database Lets You See Which Celebrities Tipped

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/11/10/joes-crab-shack-becomes-first-restaurant-chain-to-implement-no-tipping-policy/

I know you'll be shocked that the Fox News comments are universally godawful

https://www.grubstreet.com/2020/07/tip-50-percent.html

Tip at least 50 percent. Tip 75 percent. Tip 100 percent. What’s stopping you? Do you need to save that money for the vacation to Saint-Tropez you’re planning on taking once this is all over? If you can afford to go to a restaurant right now and have a leisurely meal — because you don’t need to save as much money as you can? — then, yeah, you can afford it.

Tip 200 percent. Tip 300 percent! Give the delivery guy your car and the deed to your house. If you can order food, you are the CEO of a Fortune 500 country, save those stories about how you ordered out because your back hurt too much to cook because you're taking care of your disabled spouse and your kids, clearly there's a jar full of stacks atop your fridge!

Once there was a miller who was poor, but who had a beautiful
daughter. Now it happened that he had to go and speak to the
king, and in order to make himself appear important he said
to him, I have a daughter who can spin straw into gold. The
king said to the miller, that is an art which
pleases me well, if your daughter is as clever as you say, bring
her to-morrow to my palace, and I will put her to the test.

Haha Neanderthal

Tipping is usually 15% in Quebec, which apparently makes us cheapskates. Vermonters and Upstate New Yorkers who work in the service industry reportedly cringe when they see 'Je me souviens' licence plates.

If it's any consolation, I lived in Buffalo for three years and waitresses resented Ontarians just as much.

Socialist neighbours are such a drag.

also servers in canada still make less than provincial minimum wage, which is why you still tip

Btw, this is false in seven provinces and only true for liquor servers in Ontario and BC (who are just under minimum wage $12.20 vs $14/$13.95 vs $14.60). I don't even really know why we tip as much as we do.

https://www.payworks.ca/payroll-legislation/MinimumWage.asp

I don’t know what tipping means

Something to do with sleeping cows iirc

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/02/trump-administration-tippers-fine-dining-dc.html