Is this anti-semitism?

apart from the fact that their drawings look nothing alike??

― Ward Fowler, Monday, January 28, 2013 3:26 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hey, i saw the bibi cartoon and thought it looked the same as the shitty chimpy-bush and big-eared blair cartoons that make it onto ilx. i'm not a great student of british political cartooning i'll admit.

self-hating Jew is a cute Freudian trope, but i don't think it's a great explanation of particular behavior. maybe he internalizes anti-semitic critiques and is reproducing them, or maybe he's just a sick provocateur, or maybe he's really dumb, or maybe he's incredibly cynical. xp

wow, all british cartoons look the same to you huh goole? sick

goole - most british political cartooning is p terrible, you're not missing out on much. but scarfe is really an illustrator more than a cartoonist (there is a bit of a 'debate' about why there are many similarities between the work of scarfe and ralph steadman), whereas bell is heavily influenced by r. crumb and certain vintage britishes comic strip artists like leo baxendale or ken reid - or - sharp lines vs. soft edges.

fwiw i find it equally hard to distinguish between american political cartoonists, who all seem to draw in the same (oliphant-derived?) style and format (not getting the 'joke' half the time doesn't help)

(there is a bit of a 'debate' about why there are many similarities between the work of scarfe and ralph steadman)

lol i was gonna say

I recognize that, like many Jews, I tend to be a little bit on edge about the representation of Jews in the media. It's like when Matt Taibbi called Goldman Sachs a "vampire squid" -- on one hand, you can probably make a pretty good case for Goldman Sachs being a vampire squid. On the other hand, the use of that language, specifically to refer to not even wall street generally, but to the bank with basically the #1 most Jewish sounding name, and with the CEO who, sorry, looks a little like a nazi caricature of a Jew (which, I realize, is no one's fault). Did I think Taibbi had any malicious intent toward Jews in using that term? No moreso than he has malicious intent toward everyone in his litany of bad guys. But I still felt pretty uncomfortable with it.

The thing about anti-semitism vs. anti-zionism is that, yes, there are many people who legitimately criticize israel and are even against the idea of a jewish state altogether and yet bear no ill will toward jews. So I recognize the distinction. But I have also witnessed a tendency to just kind of relocate antisemitism to antizionism, much as people who say "I don't hate black people, I just hate N**GERS" don't really get away from the dehumanizing aspects of racism, they just create a large subset to impose them on. (not a perfect parallel, but I think it illustrates the point).

So being that I'm a person who is largely critical of Israel, and even ambivalent about its existence as a Jewish state, I am very open to harsh criticism of Israel. But I still bristle every time that criticism starts to look anything like old anti-semitic tropes. Saying "I don't hate Jews, I just hate bloodsucking zionists" is hardly reassuring to me.

He's here to help

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917

Is it in any way anti-semitic to be extremely skeptical of evangelical Christians who have weird ideas about Israel and feel some sort of religious calling to support leaders of their government? They're the only unabashedly pro-Israeli state people I feel funny about.

why would it?

Is it in any way anti-semitic to be extremely skeptical of evangelical Christians who have weird ideas about Israel and feel some sort of religious calling to support leaders of their government? They're the only unabashedly pro-Israeli state people I feel funny about.

― mh, Monday, January 28, 2013 5:57 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't even care if you "feel funny" about pro-Israel Jews in general, as long as you don't imagine their support for Israel as coming from some kind of demonic lust for Palestinian blood

Scarfe did all the Pink Floyd Wall stuff, so I think he's very distinctive. But I don't like Pink Floyd, so that might go some way in explaining why I have a low opinion of his political cartoon abilities.

Re the criticism: I said it was hackneyed, but when the Israeli army kills x number of Palestinians versus the number of Israelis dead, or they reportedly use white phosphorus on citizens, not to mention the entire settlement absurdity, I don't think it's totally out of nowhere. It's not like there isn't a huge fucking wall of note in the region, not to mention the "building" of settlements in supposedly Palestinian regions. But I thought this wasn't the place for that kind of discussion. My point was that if people berate those who attack something anti-Semitic as a way to sidestep an argument, surely charging something is antisemetic works in the same way. You said earlier that you find a lot of leftist antiIsrael arguments to be a smokescreen for anti semitism, which is fine and probably fair a decent amount of the time, but writing something off as an innate hatred within the person making the argument is also a way of delegitimising their argument.

I should add that I think there are a lot of these problems that are very specific to Bibi and his regime. I wouldn't assume all Americans are for drone strikes and extrajudicial killings just because their president is.

Should say "our" president but I'm in the UK on holiday so I'm taking a break from being an American.

The thing about anti-semitism vs. anti-zionism is that, yes, there are many people who legitimately criticize israel and are even against the idea of a jewish state altogether and yet bear no ill will toward jews. So I recognize the distinction. But I have also witnessed a tendency to just kind of relocate antisemitism to antizionism, much as people who say "I don't hate black people, I just hate N**GERS" don't really get away from the dehumanizing aspects of racism, they just create a large subset to impose them on. (not a perfect parallel, but I think it illustrates the point).

So being that I'm a person who is largely critical of Israel, and even ambivalent about its existence as a Jewish state, I am very open to harsh criticism of Israel. But I still bristle every time that criticism starts to look anything like old anti-semitic tropes. Saying "I don't hate Jews, I just hate bloodsucking zionists" is hardly reassuring to me.

― space phwoar (Hurting 2), Monday, January 28, 2013 5:37 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

I think I was just gauging opinion

I don't feel in any way qualified to judge any of this, but I'm quietly nodding along to Nilmar/Hurting right now

also you can be anti-israel without bringing the word 'zion' into the picture

yes, it's not like people use the term "americaists" in criticizing the USA (although zionism was an actual thing, it seems like it's more of a convenient epithet these days)

Yeah, I don't like the Zionism term.

anyone who pretends like its a neutral term is full of shit

I agree with Hurting, btw, I just don't think this cartoon adheres to those tropes.

Well, just on a gut level it immediately made me uncomfortable. At that point I tried to ask myself whether that might just be because I am needlessly taking it personally, in a reflexive sort of way, when it isn't actually aimed at me. It kind of has the look and feel of anti-semitic cartoons, if that makes any sense. There's certainly a deep hostility in it and an attempt to demonize -- it makes it look as though Bibi is a monster for whom killing Palestinians is an end in itself. But maybe it's just a sophomoric cartoon with not much to say, and nothing more.

If I am allowed to hate a good many of the actions and policies of my own nation, while still feeling able to see many good traits and qualities in it and its people, then I can just as well hate many of the actions and policies of Israel without getting confused about whether I "hate jews". But, as a goy, if I criticize Israel's policies, I'm never going to be free of the suspicion that I'm just disguising that I am anti-semitic.

**imploringly throws his hands skyward, tilts head back and speaks as if to god**

SUCH an aggravation!

I think it's a sophomoric cartoon, but it didn't make me uncomfortable. It's just another absurd political cartoon. That said, I didn't see it as a cartoon about Bibi desiring the death of Palestinians as an end to itself. I think it's suggesting he's building what he's building on the oppression of the Palestinians.

I do feel he is, to some extent, rallying people behind him by playing up an anti-Palestinian bent.

it's not like people use the term "americaists" in criticizing the USA

we prefer "imperialist dogs" thanks

what happened to "capitalist roaders" as an epithet?

Replaced by "capitalist pigdogs" iirc.

occupied peasants need to draw a distinction between local idiocy and colonial power

lol no tho seriously best of all possible worlds

spooky...
http://i.imgur.com/Cvgdir9.png

Also, this is anti-semitism: http://www.salon.com/2013/01/28/israel_admits_ethiopian_jewish_immigrants_were_given_birth_control_shots/

The article and the comments. Israel did not admit to coercively giving birth control to Ethiopian Jews, but clearly that's what the article wants to suggest and in exchange it gets a dozen comments that say, "Next up: Death camps for the Palestinians," "Man, that is no exaggeration! I wonder when they'll start tattooing numbers on people's arms," & "What a racist despicable cult; like the Nazis keeping the blood pure I guess."

Yeah there's a fair amount of anti semitism going on in those comments,

I think the anti semitism of the article is questionable though.

I'm aware this as already been discussed in other threads btw.

I think the headline and lead are designed to imply that Israel admitted to coercively giving birth control shots. That is certainly what my wife thought when I first showed her the headline.

Yeah, it's a shit headline, but it's Salon and they produce a load of misleading headlines. The article does attempt to back them up, but as was discussed in the other thread, there are dubious qualities to that.

At this point I would say again that anti-Israel doesn't mean anti-Semite.

There's a lot of anti-America imperialism wrapped up in the Israel question, and I don't think that comes down to hating Jews at all.

the whole strain of "jews are the REAL nazis" "thought" is so despicable and wearying no matter where you come down on the issue, i guess it's parallel to the "affirmative action is the REAL racism" bullshit

http://www.geraldscarfe.com/shop/politics/i-saw-a-baby-die-today/

A bit of context re: Scarfe's work - Assad literally drinking baby's blood.

"The more Israel exist the more it becomes evident maybe the Europeans of 20s and 30s were not so far off!"

No biggie. Just comments on Salon.

hateful views in a comment section??? that's fucked up

this is cute, should i get one for my desk at work? http://www.oldjewishmen.com/product/blood-libel-leibowitz-designer-toy

(comment on anti-semitism, not actually anti-semitic)

$85.00

vinyl anti-semitic kitsch is expensive!

http://www.geraldscarfe.com/shop/politics/i-saw-a-baby-die-today/

A bit of context re: Scarfe's work - Assad literally drinking baby's blood.

― Deafening silence (DL), Tuesday, 29 January 2013 10:29 (5 hours ago) Permalink

this does actually make me feel a less strongly about the bibi cartoon

Who are you guys?
Courtney Bernard, Yankel Farkash and Isaac Buchman. A group of independent artists who have each spent a fair share of our time in New York’s Lower East Side.

bizarre

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/jan/29/sunday-times-editor-benjamin-netanyahu-cartoon

how do ppl in the UK feel about having one (1) legitimate newspaper for the whole country, alongside an assortment of Murdoch mouthpieces and aspirants