Is this anti-semitism?

Which is a bigger problem in the world: Anti-semitism, or false accusations of anti-semitism?

I think that is a false dichotomy

Ridiculous question. One is worse, both are bad. The existence of anti-semitism doesn't give you license to make accusations of anti-semitism and dismiss any alternative interpretation.

I think that if someone says that they find something anti-semitic you can take them at their word and not assume it's a conspiracy to label critics of Israel as anti-semites in order to shout down their criticism.

I wouldn't mind so much if you hadn't linked to a blog which compared it to a Goebbels poster which it looks nothing like. If you compare a cartoonist with no record of anti-semitism (afaik) to one of Goebbels' pet hatemongers then some people are going to disagree.

Oh poor thing, he's been accused of drawing an anti-semitic comic and he doesn't even have a record!

I'm in agreement with you about this cartoonmordy. But I think that the over zealous tendency of groups like the ADL to label things as anti Semitic can be unfair both to people who say things and to Jewish people in general, who get unfairly lumped in with Israel, when through are actually from Baltimore or wherever.

If only the Jews hadn't declared this anti-semitic, surely this cartoon would've brought down the Likud government I'm sure!

Isn't there some degree to which you're shouting down the criticism, as hackneyed as it is, of the cartoon by just labelling it and its author antisemetic or at least of having a hatred of the Jews?

xxp I don't defend everything Abe Foxman says!

If someone says they find something anti-semitic, then I can take them at their word that they find that thing anti-semitic. If I think it aligns with known features of anti-semitic thought, including physical characteristics, I may make the same conclusion. If a number of people explain they find that the case, even if I don't see it, I'll submit that for all intents and purposes it is anti-semitic.

It's intent versus interpretation, and interpretation wins every time, even if it's not the original intent. I think the idea is that no one person is an arbiter of what is or isn't racist or anti-semitic. The problem is that people aren't smart enough to make a clear case without showing their inherent biases in these fucking godawful political cartoons

xp As far as I can tell there is no legitimate critique this cartoon is making that is being ignored by focusing on its anti-semitism. Can you see a legitimate critique?

i learned there are two different shitty british cartoonists, scarfe AND steve bell. always saw these as from the same dude.

I think Steve Bell has more "issues" in this area.

Like, if he drew a cartoon about a Palestinian man who couldn't get a visa to visit his family in the West Bank and was trapped in Gaza, and instead of focusing on this point I kept complaining that the border guard had a possibly Jewish seeming nose, I could get that it would seem like I'm shouting down a legitimate critique. But what's the legitimate critique here? He's condemning Bibi's policy of killing Arabs and baking them into walls?

. always saw these as from the same dude.

apart from the fact that their drawings look nothing alike??

But the question here is not "Is this a good and informative cartoon?" Because no it's not.

Gukbe wrote: "Isn't there some degree to which you're shouting down the criticism, as hackneyed as it is, of the cartoon by just labelling it and its author antisemetic or at least of having a hatred of the Jews?"

I'm asking what the criticism is that Gukbe thinks I'm shouting down.

Anyway, it's not anybody's place to say whether or not you personally should find something anti-semitic but when some Israeli Jews are on the record saying that it's not it's at least up for debate.

There are Jews who think all kinds of sick shit is fair game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Atzmon

on some level, everything is up for debate; the bigger question is always "is this a debate worth having?"

re: Atzmon the "self-hating Jew" accusation always seems weird/wrong to me

apart from the fact that their drawings look nothing alike??

― Ward Fowler, Monday, January 28, 2013 3:26 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hey, i saw the bibi cartoon and thought it looked the same as the shitty chimpy-bush and big-eared blair cartoons that make it onto ilx. i'm not a great student of british political cartooning i'll admit.

self-hating Jew is a cute Freudian trope, but i don't think it's a great explanation of particular behavior. maybe he internalizes anti-semitic critiques and is reproducing them, or maybe he's just a sick provocateur, or maybe he's really dumb, or maybe he's incredibly cynical. xp

wow, all british cartoons look the same to you huh goole? sick

goole - most british political cartooning is p terrible, you're not missing out on much. but scarfe is really an illustrator more than a cartoonist (there is a bit of a 'debate' about why there are many similarities between the work of scarfe and ralph steadman), whereas bell is heavily influenced by r. crumb and certain vintage britishes comic strip artists like leo baxendale or ken reid - or - sharp lines vs. soft edges.

fwiw i find it equally hard to distinguish between american political cartoonists, who all seem to draw in the same (oliphant-derived?) style and format (not getting the 'joke' half the time doesn't help)

(there is a bit of a 'debate' about why there are many similarities between the work of scarfe and ralph steadman)

lol i was gonna say

I recognize that, like many Jews, I tend to be a little bit on edge about the representation of Jews in the media. It's like when Matt Taibbi called Goldman Sachs a "vampire squid" -- on one hand, you can probably make a pretty good case for Goldman Sachs being a vampire squid. On the other hand, the use of that language, specifically to refer to not even wall street generally, but to the bank with basically the #1 most Jewish sounding name, and with the CEO who, sorry, looks a little like a nazi caricature of a Jew (which, I realize, is no one's fault). Did I think Taibbi had any malicious intent toward Jews in using that term? No moreso than he has malicious intent toward everyone in his litany of bad guys. But I still felt pretty uncomfortable with it.

The thing about anti-semitism vs. anti-zionism is that, yes, there are many people who legitimately criticize israel and are even against the idea of a jewish state altogether and yet bear no ill will toward jews. So I recognize the distinction. But I have also witnessed a tendency to just kind of relocate antisemitism to antizionism, much as people who say "I don't hate black people, I just hate N**GERS" don't really get away from the dehumanizing aspects of racism, they just create a large subset to impose them on. (not a perfect parallel, but I think it illustrates the point).

So being that I'm a person who is largely critical of Israel, and even ambivalent about its existence as a Jewish state, I am very open to harsh criticism of Israel. But I still bristle every time that criticism starts to look anything like old anti-semitic tropes. Saying "I don't hate Jews, I just hate bloodsucking zionists" is hardly reassuring to me.

He's here to help

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21239917

Is it in any way anti-semitic to be extremely skeptical of evangelical Christians who have weird ideas about Israel and feel some sort of religious calling to support leaders of their government? They're the only unabashedly pro-Israeli state people I feel funny about.

why would it?

Is it in any way anti-semitic to be extremely skeptical of evangelical Christians who have weird ideas about Israel and feel some sort of religious calling to support leaders of their government? They're the only unabashedly pro-Israeli state people I feel funny about.

― mh, Monday, January 28, 2013 5:57 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't even care if you "feel funny" about pro-Israel Jews in general, as long as you don't imagine their support for Israel as coming from some kind of demonic lust for Palestinian blood

Scarfe did all the Pink Floyd Wall stuff, so I think he's very distinctive. But I don't like Pink Floyd, so that might go some way in explaining why I have a low opinion of his political cartoon abilities.

Re the criticism: I said it was hackneyed, but when the Israeli army kills x number of Palestinians versus the number of Israelis dead, or they reportedly use white phosphorus on citizens, not to mention the entire settlement absurdity, I don't think it's totally out of nowhere. It's not like there isn't a huge fucking wall of note in the region, not to mention the "building" of settlements in supposedly Palestinian regions. But I thought this wasn't the place for that kind of discussion. My point was that if people berate those who attack something anti-Semitic as a way to sidestep an argument, surely charging something is antisemetic works in the same way. You said earlier that you find a lot of leftist antiIsrael arguments to be a smokescreen for anti semitism, which is fine and probably fair a decent amount of the time, but writing something off as an innate hatred within the person making the argument is also a way of delegitimising their argument.

I should add that I think there are a lot of these problems that are very specific to Bibi and his regime. I wouldn't assume all Americans are for drone strikes and extrajudicial killings just because their president is.

Should say "our" president but I'm in the UK on holiday so I'm taking a break from being an American.

The thing about anti-semitism vs. anti-zionism is that, yes, there are many people who legitimately criticize israel and are even against the idea of a jewish state altogether and yet bear no ill will toward jews. So I recognize the distinction. But I have also witnessed a tendency to just kind of relocate antisemitism to antizionism, much as people who say "I don't hate black people, I just hate N**GERS" don't really get away from the dehumanizing aspects of racism, they just create a large subset to impose them on. (not a perfect parallel, but I think it illustrates the point).

So being that I'm a person who is largely critical of Israel, and even ambivalent about its existence as a Jewish state, I am very open to harsh criticism of Israel. But I still bristle every time that criticism starts to look anything like old anti-semitic tropes. Saying "I don't hate Jews, I just hate bloodsucking zionists" is hardly reassuring to me.

― space phwoar (Hurting 2), Monday, January 28, 2013 5:37 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

I think I was just gauging opinion

I don't feel in any way qualified to judge any of this, but I'm quietly nodding along to Nilmar/Hurting right now

also you can be anti-israel without bringing the word 'zion' into the picture

yes, it's not like people use the term "americaists" in criticizing the USA (although zionism was an actual thing, it seems like it's more of a convenient epithet these days)

Yeah, I don't like the Zionism term.

anyone who pretends like its a neutral term is full of shit

I agree with Hurting, btw, I just don't think this cartoon adheres to those tropes.

Well, just on a gut level it immediately made me uncomfortable. At that point I tried to ask myself whether that might just be because I am needlessly taking it personally, in a reflexive sort of way, when it isn't actually aimed at me. It kind of has the look and feel of anti-semitic cartoons, if that makes any sense. There's certainly a deep hostility in it and an attempt to demonize -- it makes it look as though Bibi is a monster for whom killing Palestinians is an end in itself. But maybe it's just a sophomoric cartoon with not much to say, and nothing more.

If I am allowed to hate a good many of the actions and policies of my own nation, while still feeling able to see many good traits and qualities in it and its people, then I can just as well hate many of the actions and policies of Israel without getting confused about whether I "hate jews". But, as a goy, if I criticize Israel's policies, I'm never going to be free of the suspicion that I'm just disguising that I am anti-semitic.

**imploringly throws his hands skyward, tilts head back and speaks as if to god**

SUCH an aggravation!

I think it's a sophomoric cartoon, but it didn't make me uncomfortable. It's just another absurd political cartoon. That said, I didn't see it as a cartoon about Bibi desiring the death of Palestinians as an end to itself. I think it's suggesting he's building what he's building on the oppression of the Palestinians.

I do feel he is, to some extent, rallying people behind him by playing up an anti-Palestinian bent.

it's not like people use the term "americaists" in criticizing the USA

we prefer "imperialist dogs" thanks

what happened to "capitalist roaders" as an epithet?

Replaced by "capitalist pigdogs" iirc.