Is this anti-semitism?

every time this happens they say they would do the same for putin or whatever, which might be true but is always oblivious to the overdetermination, that where israel is concerned there is always a litany of old antisemitic tropes produced by the same 'neutral' imagery

― Why they hide the bodice under décolletage? (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Monday, January 28, 2013 3:00 PM (42 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this seems fairly clear cut to me.

― max, Monday, 28 January 2013

yeah i accept this. and there is in this the bravado of the stand-up comedian breaking taboos, being shocking to reveal truth, which usually turns out to be hubris

There's also the abiding shitness of political cartoonists when they're so outraged or horrified that they can't be witty or original and fall back on the same old tropes: blood-soaked hands, piles of skulls, the Grim Reaper, etc. And some of those tropes are undoubtedly more problematic when applied to Israel but whether they're actually anti-semitic is in the eye of the beholder and, as the Haaretz writer, points out, Scarfe omits anything with obvious anti-semitic connotations.

^^

Political cartoons are pretty stupid. I always think of Brandt from The Day Today.

i mean i think (hope?) that scarfe is not "actually" anti-semitic but cartoonists of all people should be aware of the power & resonance of certain symbols & imagery

like blood and towering over people as if to devour them

Cartoonists should be careful, but I just don't see anything in this outside of Scarfe's regular style. I

Yes, protesters love hyperbole. Look at basically every protest ever.

This is why I try not to introduce anti-Semitism into discussions with anti-Zionists. There is too much plausible deniability. I don't know that the cartoonist hates Jews in his heart. I know that he doesn't like Jews very much. No one who likes Jews would criticize Israeli policy w/ a cartoon about a Jew using Arab blood as mortar in a wall. They'd find a way to criticize it that couldn't be "misinterpreted" as anti-Semitic. And that's really at the heart of it - he's either evil or thoughtless, and at least one Jew thought those two things were the same.

I guess I should start thinking of Jews as the same as Israel to make sure I appreciate the sensitivity.

u imply antisemitism on the reg xp

I "imply." Ironic!

Gukbe, about ~40% of the world Jewish population lives in Israel. Maybe you didn't realize that?

I do realise that, but...uh...so?

You wrote: "I guess I should start thinking of Jews as the same as Israel to make sure I appreciate the sensitivity."

When you're criticizing the Jewish State where almost half the world Jewish population lives it's kinda unavoidable that you're talking about Jews?

I'm not comfortable tying a group of people inextricably to a nation. Certainly not comfortable tying a group of people to Bibi.

Except a State is different than a People.

I'd say if you want to avoid anti-Semitism, when you criticize Israel avoid hyperbole that seems cribbed from anti-Semitic cartoons in the 40s? You don't need to make a big deal about how Israel does not represent all Jews or how criticizing the State is not criticizing Jews, etc. Just stay away from the anti-Semitic tropes when talking about Israel.

Maybe, but again, we disagree on the level of antisemitism going on in that cartoon.

But yes I would avoid a Gargamel type figure.

I wonder what is at stake for you in arguing that the cartoon is not antisemitic. Are you afraid that if we agree that building walls with Arab blood is an antisemitic image that legitimate criticisms of Israel will be off the table?

"I can't suggest that Bibi is building a wall out of Arab blood? What's next? I can't criticize Israel's policies of rejecting movement visas from Gaza to the West Bank? I can't criticize the embargo?"

What's at stake is a dude drew Bibi with a hot crazy oversized nose but its still antisemetic.

With a not*

hahahaha what a typo

So people hurl around accusations that he has an innate hatred of a group of people.

In the very least, the creator of this image is responsible for being aware of how his imagery conforms to historically racist tropes. So, too are the editors.

DJP pointed to the racist bottle-opener thread, and I think that's a solid comparison.

We can argue about intent, but c'mon, look at it!

"People hurl around accusations"

Which is a bigger problem in the world: Anti-semitism, or false accusations of anti-semitism?

I think that is a false dichotomy

Ridiculous question. One is worse, both are bad. The existence of anti-semitism doesn't give you license to make accusations of anti-semitism and dismiss any alternative interpretation.

I think that if someone says that they find something anti-semitic you can take them at their word and not assume it's a conspiracy to label critics of Israel as anti-semites in order to shout down their criticism.

I wouldn't mind so much if you hadn't linked to a blog which compared it to a Goebbels poster which it looks nothing like. If you compare a cartoonist with no record of anti-semitism (afaik) to one of Goebbels' pet hatemongers then some people are going to disagree.

Oh poor thing, he's been accused of drawing an anti-semitic comic and he doesn't even have a record!

I'm in agreement with you about this cartoonmordy. But I think that the over zealous tendency of groups like the ADL to label things as anti Semitic can be unfair both to people who say things and to Jewish people in general, who get unfairly lumped in with Israel, when through are actually from Baltimore or wherever.

If only the Jews hadn't declared this anti-semitic, surely this cartoon would've brought down the Likud government I'm sure!

Isn't there some degree to which you're shouting down the criticism, as hackneyed as it is, of the cartoon by just labelling it and its author antisemetic or at least of having a hatred of the Jews?

xxp I don't defend everything Abe Foxman says!

If someone says they find something anti-semitic, then I can take them at their word that they find that thing anti-semitic. If I think it aligns with known features of anti-semitic thought, including physical characteristics, I may make the same conclusion. If a number of people explain they find that the case, even if I don't see it, I'll submit that for all intents and purposes it is anti-semitic.

It's intent versus interpretation, and interpretation wins every time, even if it's not the original intent. I think the idea is that no one person is an arbiter of what is or isn't racist or anti-semitic. The problem is that people aren't smart enough to make a clear case without showing their inherent biases in these fucking godawful political cartoons

xp As far as I can tell there is no legitimate critique this cartoon is making that is being ignored by focusing on its anti-semitism. Can you see a legitimate critique?

i learned there are two different shitty british cartoonists, scarfe AND steve bell. always saw these as from the same dude.

I think Steve Bell has more "issues" in this area.

Like, if he drew a cartoon about a Palestinian man who couldn't get a visa to visit his family in the West Bank and was trapped in Gaza, and instead of focusing on this point I kept complaining that the border guard had a possibly Jewish seeming nose, I could get that it would seem like I'm shouting down a legitimate critique. But what's the legitimate critique here? He's condemning Bibi's policy of killing Arabs and baking them into walls?

. always saw these as from the same dude.

apart from the fact that their drawings look nothing alike??

But the question here is not "Is this a good and informative cartoon?" Because no it's not.

Gukbe wrote: "Isn't there some degree to which you're shouting down the criticism, as hackneyed as it is, of the cartoon by just labelling it and its author antisemetic or at least of having a hatred of the Jews?"

I'm asking what the criticism is that Gukbe thinks I'm shouting down.

Anyway, it's not anybody's place to say whether or not you personally should find something anti-semitic but when some Israeli Jews are on the record saying that it's not it's at least up for debate.

There are Jews who think all kinds of sick shit is fair game:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Atzmon

on some level, everything is up for debate; the bigger question is always "is this a debate worth having?"

re: Atzmon the "self-hating Jew" accusation always seems weird/wrong to me

apart from the fact that their drawings look nothing alike??

― Ward Fowler, Monday, January 28, 2013 3:26 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hey, i saw the bibi cartoon and thought it looked the same as the shitty chimpy-bush and big-eared blair cartoons that make it onto ilx. i'm not a great student of british political cartooning i'll admit.