Sea Devils And Die: GeroniMoffat's Doctor Who In The 2010s

SFX were fine except ice lady, who was terrible, but looked intentionally / endearingly so

Some theories circulating already that Clara is the living embodiment of the show

they already did this with Amy though

Amy is the living embodiment of everything though.

I thought this was pretty great and I otherwise haven't really enjoyed an episode of Doctor Who this year. Part of that might just have been that I was really tired of the Ponds, they'd run their course ages ago and Amy's storyline was a complete mess by the end.

I'm liking Clara so far, although bummed out they killed the Victorian version, I was hoping for a companion not from present-day Britain. The cemetary scene at the end was a bit Sally Sparrow. Moffatt's tendency to over-elaborate and over-conceptualise companion story arcs is one of his worst traits though and I hope this one doesn't turn out to be a similar mess. Maybe there'll be a different Clara in each episode?

Can someone explain the deal with the Doctor's Sontaran buddy? I don't think I've seen him before although I may have missed an episode somewhere along the line.

Appeared in A Good Man Goes To War, same as Mme Vastra & Jenny - presumably they save his life after that and he hangs out with them since, under an onus.

Enjoyed it a lot, best xmas special to date I reckon. Agree with everyone that the new title sequence is great (loved his face appearing!), and that Victorian Clara had a lot more promise than meta-arc Clara.

def got Sally Sparrow vibes from some of the Clara scenes -- maybe that's why I like her so much?

I think that's why I dislike her so much to be honest -- I'd rather have a new companion that wasn't made up of so many recycled tropes. I'd rather have a character that is interesting in their own right and not because of some overarching story arc or another timey wimey mystery.

that's understandable. I think I always feel that way when the show's not on the air and then as soon as I watch all my expectations go out the window, lol

I don't want to give the impression that I hated this, because I didn't. Just some quibbles. Anything with Ian McKellen shouting can't be all bad.

I wanted to bring up a spoilery point but I've not posted on a DW thread before...perhaps since this was the first one I've seen in real time. Anyhow, whats the policy? I'd hate to offend terribly.

As long as it's about something from an episode that's been broadcast in the UK you'll be fine. Some people get a bit arsey about discussing coming soon and next time trailers though.

I'd rather have a character that is interesting in their own right and not because of some overarching story arc or another timey wimey mystery.

This. I liked original Dalek Oswin because she was a tech genius. Well, I guess now all her incarnations are geniuses but that alone should have been enough really.

Alright episode - kind of tired of evil alien things feeding off human emotions or thoughts too. just think about love/tell the alien thing you're its mum!

i really hope Clara dies in every episode? which sounds kind of weird, as I actually liked the character, but the idea of a companion who the doctor comes to find in a bunch of different times, and who he can never save (but then maybe she... saves herself??) is kind of nifty.

on the other hand, i really wish there were fewer emotions happening here.

I know Grant wasn't awesome but I really did enjoy him nonethless...he does that flat-affect misanthrope so well, I got a little hint of Withnail in some of it. Or maybe it's just me being a fangirl, I suppose i see withnail in everything he does :/

Wikipedia confirmed it, but my thought was that the Great Intelligence was the same creature as in the Abominable Snowmen... thought that was cool, though it seemed more of a nod than anything

i really hope Clara dies in every episode?

Oh my god, they killed Clara! You bastards!

lol

exactlyyyyyyyyyy

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llbnv0bfkN1qe7olko1_500.jpg

my thought was that the Great Intelligence was the same creature as in the Abominable Snowmen...

This was heavily underlined with the last Vastra/Jenny exchange, if you'd missed the lunchbox lampshade earlier.

Continuity problem though - he says the lunchbox is from 67, and the line the Web Of Fear is on doesn't open until 68. UNIT dating be dawned, Web of Fear is in 1975 (40 years after The Abominable Snowman from the dialogue).

I also thought (hoped?) that her dying every story despite best efforts at saving would be a neat plot point, and then I thought, well, Rory's already done that, and I don't really need any more excuses for emo Doctor every episode.

Quite liked the special but reserve the right to complain about everything in it later in the series when I'm sick of whichever bits turn out to be the new recurring tropey-wopey thing.

haha v true

Continuity problem though - he says the lunchbox is from 67, and the line the Web Of Fear is on doesn't open until 68.

dude it could just get the IDEA of using the underground from the map, and then look at a new one once it actually comes back and invades the tunnels, I'm sure there'd be one on the wall

this was pretty cool, although I am already tired of the mysteriously dying companion

well, not tired of her personality, just tired of her dying

it's not the same when it isn't Rory

Remember when Moffatt was the writer who didn't want to kill anyone at all in any of his episodes? And now he's killed all his companions off at least twice. Actually maybe Amy's only died once but there are enough deed Rorys to skew that anyway.

He's killed Amy twice at least; he had Rory shoot her and she was basically dead, plus there was old middle-aged Amy who went down in a blaze of glory after pushing the crew into the TARDIS and buying them time to escape. Oh, and also he zapped her back in time where she died of old age.

He also killed River in her very first story, lol.

actually I guess he didn't write "The Girl Who Waited" but I still think it counts since he's show runner

I didn't get the lunchbox ref, but my knowledge of classic Who is in bits and pieces. (xposts)

It's an Easter egg, not important to this episode in any way

(a great and fun Easter egg though!)

it was a callback to a couple of classic but lost 2nd Doctor stories

Speaking of deaths (with apologies if it's already been posted itt):
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/359/c/5/the_gallifreycrumb_tinies_by_eattoast-d5p4bnf.jpg

(image linked bcz huge, I hope)

Loved Clara's pluck and sass, as well as the lulzy Strax/ Doctor exchanges, but the climax and the stuff immediately leading up to it were really tiring.

I liked the general re-invention, the Doctor as Scrooge and the stairs to the stairs to the TARDIS, made very effective by seeing it through Clara's eyes.

The TDKR bow-tie moment was great, as was "I only know who" - the line about souffles would have been a bit less awkwardly hit-them-over-the-head if it had been after the key handover though.

Well, I guess now all her incarnations are geniuses but that alone should have been enough really.

This Clara wasn't a genius, she just had the wandering spirit (which is basically the only requirement).

Though, right, I feel I kind of missed the reason why Clara handed in her dish washer job to go back to being a Governess (or rather the reverse) - I briefly thought there might be some catburglar 'casing the joint' thing going on, but no, nothing.

I assumed the landlord was family or an old mate and she was doing him a favour.

Ice-animated revenant, bloody "Winter is coming" thrice -- where are the direwolves?

Kill Jester.

"Ice-animated revenant, bloody "Winter is coming" thrice -- where are the direwolves?"

Ennit, spent half the episode waiting for someone to tell The Doctor that he was as useless as nipples on a breastplate.

Clara is dating Robb Stark irl.

!

that is a nice convergence

Hopefully the wedding will not be red.

i really hope Clara dies in every episode? which sounds kind of weird, as I actually liked the character, but the idea of a companion who the doctor comes to find in a bunch of different times, and who he can never save (but then maybe she... saves herself??) is kind of nifty.

Yes! I thought this as well. Enjoyed this episode - the ladder into nowhere & spiral staircase to a cloud had a (for me necessary) touch of the fairy tale, the Dickensian type of the man or woman who hardens their heart against emotion to avoid pain (in this case two men who do this), an impertinent assistant who has the smarts to keep up with the Doctor (scene on the rooftop with the umbrella), punch and judy (rather shoehorned in, but like I care).

Too many emotions! Definitely. But this has become something in nuwho that I've just learned to put up with by and large. New/old credit sequence theme amazing. Chill down the spine.

the ladder into nowhere & spiral staircase to a cloud had a (for me necessary) touch of the fairy tale

This is probably the single thing that Moffatt is best at. He's at his best when he is obviously pitching a scene straight at kids, whether fairy tale or screaming horror.

Yep, wd definitely agree with that. It's also a handicap for him - he loves establishing the uncanny or unheimlich, and is great at it, but the introduction of science, often introduced late as being part of the solution, is often so hurried and chaotic as to require a complete change of mood.

(Think this episode did reasonably well in that respect).

There were similar difficulties in yoking the two together in The Hound of the Baskervilles Sherlock episode.

Blink is a wonderful exception in this respect.

It's a similar problem to the deductive detective story - as with Blink the only deductive story I know that is a true solution of both the uncanny and the rational is Chesterton's The Honour of Israel Gow.

Baskervilles was indeed v poor at that but it's Gatiss

(whose Who track record on this was 100% atrocious until Night Terrors, wherein at least he handwaved with a slight flourish)

Nightshade was pretty good

'Yep, wd definitely agree with that. It's also a handicap for him - he loves establishing the uncanny or unheimlich, and is great at it, but the introduction of science, often introduced late as being part of the solution, is often so hurried and chaotic as to require a complete change of mood.'

Am finding this really predictable now too - 'ancient mystical magical thing is actually aliens/science'.

In my opinion it worked properly once and once only, in Quatermass and the Pit, (the original TV series by Nigel Kneale, which I've decided *is* Doctor Who more or less give or take) where tea-leaves, demons, ghosts, witches and all were simply manifestations of the evil Martian intelligence in the crashed prehistoric spaceship. It was a slow reveal and then the use of Blitz footage gives it reality.

The whole idea just has diminishing returns, Pyramids of Mars notwithstanding, and I remember thinking, as a kid (so this isn't just the thing where adults whinge about goings on in a kid's TV show) - 'So Dracula is actually a scientist, so mummies are actually robots, so dragons are dinosaurs?' and how this populates all of world mythology with a stupidly large number of secret aliens running around.

It's like ... there's not even any genuine urge to deconstruct superstition anymore, it's just a cliche. As if they're afraid to just have something dark, ancient and evil that can't be explained. And there's a whiff of Richard Dawkins about it too, and Dr Who ought to be far, far from him, I feel, anyway

* where tea-leaves, demons, ghosts, witches and all of human history and evolution

Nightshade was pretty good

yeah I meant TV, even the first The Time Travellers is miles better than any of his legit episodes