"Should we be suspicious of hipsters’ newfound love of R&B?" or "Race and indie music, part 4762"

so glad someone finally gave that guy some acid

should we be suspicious of hipsters writing about r&b...

I am suspicious of hipsters who have never done acid

mars volta 2012

on another note i'm sick of seeing this contrived interpretation of "call me maybe" as an ode to the simpler times when we spoke to each other and used phones

Okay so FWIW Jason King, who wrote the original post, just posted this in a FB comment chain in response to it:

I think Channel Orange and Kaleidoscope Dreams are to differing degrees solid musical statements. I also think there's a lot of other records this year that deserve as much or more attention but aren't getting it for reasons that are worth considering. My interest, with this post, at least was the return the conversation on music in 2012 in an explicit way to issues of identity. You can't really talk about the resurgent interest in R&B this year without talking about race, not to mention gender and class, etc. Birgitta - other than Kem's Xmas album, I don't think any of those artists had a new release this year...and the word count for these entries is very limited. While I think R&B is a very diverse and flexible category that doesn't need policing, with more space I certainly would have mentioned Keyshia Cole, Monica, Eric Benet and others that I thought put out solid albums. Joseph - I think Frank Ocean has come out without having to shoehorn himself into the traditional narrative of the closet (i.e. the you're either in or out dichotomy) and that may be more valuable in the long run. I don't think he is or wants to be a role model for any particular community.

Keyshia Cole, Monica, Eric Benet are very interesting picks to rep for. Dude either really listens to a TON of R&B, or he has absolutely no idea what the fuck he's talking about

Given what a turd the Monica album was, I'm tempted to take the more cynical read

so if a black artist make "Self-consciously artsy, experimental, inwardly focused (“looking for myself”), psychedelic, or trippy", is he unconsciously racist?

haha, wait, are we calling Jason King a racist now or am I misreading? cause if so, I have some news to break to you.

I heard Miguel's "Do You" for the first time yesterday, and for about half the song I assumed it was an indie band like JJ. Song is very similar in vibe to their track 'Ecstasy' - itself a riff on a Lil Wayne song.

I don't think there has to be anything inherently racist about this development unless you want it to be. It's a dialogue that's opened - Frank Ocean and the Weeknd appropriating 'chillwavey' sounds, indie acts appropriating r'n'b. These exchanges have and always will exist. Call it cultural appropriation if you will - cultural appropriation isn't always a bad thing, and I don't really see how it's all that different from how pop r'n'b and hiphop have moved towards trance and house sounds in recent years.

Being suspicious of "white people making black music" and vice versa is the dumbest thing ever, obviously. I'm just more concerned about everything turning into a big boring mush of a middle ground where all the tropes of either genre are in place without any of the bits that makes them interesting. Fusing indie and r'n'b sounds was maybe an interesting new thing when I first noticed it as a "thing" in 2009, but willowy Brooklyn girls in corduroy skirts doing their best to melismate their way out of their own meekness while sensitive LA boys who call themselves "singer-songwriters" put cassette rewinding noises and Coldplay samples over their own homebrewed confessionals - I'm not sure if this is a route that is leading anywhere exciting, at least not yet. Rather than getting affronted by a perceived race issue, or the bastardisation of one's favourite genre, people should be more concerned about whether these artists will manage break free of tokenism and derivativeness, whether something clearly unique will come out of this that doesn't appear to treat said generic tropes as a crutch or USP.

Overall, I can see this leading towards some really interesting stuff. There's something significant about this current battening down of tribal boundaries between supposed "white" indie music and "black" r'n'b - territories which have been marked out for too long IMO. So long as people aren't just doing the equivalent of wearing a Slayer t-shirt for the "rock-chic look", this could get more interesting. As it is, indie and r'n'b have finished making eyes at each other, they've started talking, but they've yet to reach first base.

Argh my eyes make it stop.

Bad luck Sly Stone and Prince. "Self-consciously artsy, experimental, inwardly focused (“looking for myself”), psychedelic, or trippy" makes you indie-rock.

otm. this describes gigantic swathes of the greatest music of all time.

^

Self-consciously artsy, experimental, inwardly focused (“looking for myself”), psychedelic, or trippy

actually a nice sentence, makes me want to put on "in a silent way".

I'm asking this because I don't really know, but is it fair to say that examples of cross-genre (or genreless) artists such as Sly and Prince became less ubiquitous throughout the '90s? I can only really think of a few examples, Outkast most prominently, who continued to carry the flame in a significant way beyond adding a bit of rock guitar to a track or whatever. Feels as though as the '90s and '00s wore on the boundaries between what was deemed "acceptable" in rock and r'n'b became increasingly more defined, which is maybe why there's suddenly a big hoo-hah in the media about this supposed radical new shift.

The article in the original post is so rambling and incoherent than I'm amazed Amateurist considered it a worthwhile base for launching into this tedious debate for the eight millionth time.

When you consider that classic soul is the single biggest component of both Kaleidoscope Dream and Channel Orange it's kind of amazing how little it gets mentioned in these arguments. Plus the lame notion that guitars and R&B are strangers to one another in the first place. No one embarks upon this kind of handwringing when listening to a Meshell Ndegeocello or Maxwell album.

worrying about who likes stuff you like is probably a cue to go and jump in the nearest stretch of deep water

along with worrying about why people like things or assuming you can guess.

truth

thinking we can probably trim about a third of the fat off ILM if we adopt this policy

fuck indie tho while i'm on

No one embarks upon this kind of handwringing when listening to a Meshell Ndegeocello or Maxwell album.

OTM. Nobody complains when Erykah Badu gets across-the-broad acclaim for much the same reasons as Frank Ocean, ie "Self-consciously artsy, experimental, inwardly focused," only without once sampling MGMT.

pitchfork really can't win, can they? if they like something it's because it's obv indie, and if they don't they are ignoring it because it's obv not.

xpost Is this exactly the same thing going on as Erykah Badu, Prince, Sly, Outkast etc though? Not saying it is or it isn't, but the Ocean/Weeknd school seem to be focusing on a very specific subset of sounds and tropes. They're not simply going for a "let's rock" thing or a multi-genre thing. And it seems, to me at least, that there's a sort of middle-ground being hinted at from both sides of the spectrum.

but is it fair to say that examples of cross-genre (or genreless) artists such as Sly and Prince became less ubiquitous throughout the '90s?

trajectory of lenny kravitz is actually an interesting case study here due to the heavy soul-rock connection (maybe tt d'arby also but to a lesser extent as he wasn't visible at all by the end of that decade). possibly kravitz was thought of and preferred as increasingly rock and other doors slowly became closed to him. the unexpected success of 'fly away' years later might support this, altho the same album it's on contains pre-emptive 80s-electro-pop-revival gambit 'black velveteen' which could've been a hit but wasn't.

When you consider that classic soul is the single biggest component of both Kaleidoscope Dream and Channel Orange it's kind of amazing how little it gets mentioned in these arguments. Plus the lame notion that guitars and R&B are strangers to one another in the first place. No one embarks upon this kind of handwringing when listening to a Meshell Ndegeocello or Maxwell album.

― Matt DC, Wednesday, December 19, 2012 6:07 AM (51 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah otm. the Miguel album is so fucking soulful and well sung and aware of R&B conventions, and people manage to praise it for everything BUT that.

because that would be rockist (not a joke, i think this is about the backlash against a focus on pure musicianship in rock criticism which does go all the way back to the late 70s)

true. i also love how one of the best moments on the album is aging session dude Jerry Wonda popping slap bass.

There's something significant about this current battening down of tribal boundaries between supposed "white" indie music and "black" r'n'b - territories which have been marked out for too long IMO.

this has not been my experience

so you've never come across rockism? indie and r'n'b have always been one and the same?

I have never seen these tribal boundaries as intractable as the ones you've described.

"Rockists" were much more in touch with black music than indie kids were

Not that it matters a jot

xxpost Okay, there are always going to be exceptions - indie/r'nb is not a binary; but can you give any examples of the two genres feeding off each other in any significant way 1999-2009?

http://youtu.be/qNXxE-jwu1k

sampling coldplay isn't much different to all those '90s r'n'b acts who got into bed with Phil Collins and has arguably nothing to do with an r'n'b/indie axis.

Indie is not a genre!

for the sakes of this debate, it is, otherwise this whoel thread is null and void.

All the qualities that these writers think has been the provenance of "indie" R&B has already possessed in abundance.

"Rockists" were much more in touch with black music than indie kids were

― Tom D is secretly an important person (Tom D.), Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:53 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Not that it matters a jot

― Tom D is secretly an important person (Tom D.), Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:54 AM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah the thing that's an aberration is the last decade or so of white musicians that WEREN'T drawing significant inspiration from black pop

xp Yes. It gives indie far too much credit and R&B too little to act as if all of these substantial artistic qualities are specific to the former.

My favourite music is probably 70s soul and that's what I hear in Frank Ocean - not a taboo-busting love of Grizzly Bear and Dirty Projectors.

dog latin, you're clearly going to disqualify the party music of indie people c. 2001-5 that involved mixing indie-lovers' classics with pop, hip-hop and r'n'b vocals/samples/acapellas, because that's not indie enough or r'n'b enough or girls in corduroy dresses enough.

would you let through cocorosie? that, for everything that's wrong with it, is the forerunner to the stuff you're talking about.

to the brooklyn girls of 2009, that is.

eah the thing that's an aberration is the last decade or so of white musicians that WEREN'T drawing significant inspiration from black pop

― some dude, Wednesday, 19 December 2012 13:12 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes. I'm talking as much about how a lot of indie acts are also appropriating r'n'b signifiers in a much more gestural and obvious way than Frank Ocean et al appropriating indie. And yet it feels as though they're somehow coming to meet each other in some cases - like there's one day going to be this point where you can't tell the difference. As I mentioned upthread, upon hearing the opening verse of "Do You", I had to check it wasn't an indie band "doing" r'n'b, and that's as much to do with what has been happening with acts like JJ, Dirty Projectors and Discovery in recent years as any trends in r'n'b.

and I just thought Miguel was just an R&B guy doing R&B.

would you let through cocorosie? that, for everything that's wrong with it, is the forerunner to the stuff you're talking about.

I've only heard one cocorosie album and it sounded like My Little Ponies braying in a haunted house, so I don't really know. I know about their ugly "Kill Whitey" stuff though, so I guess in its own horrible way it could have something to do with it. I'd like to think (or at least hope) that at least some of the indie acts taking influence from r'n'b are doing it out of a genuine love and respect for the music though.

I've never heard the guy but, being an indie hipster of sorts, I will definitely check him out! (xp)

and I just thought Miguel was just an R&B guy doing R&B.

― the little prince of inane false binary hype (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 19 December 2012 13:27 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

No one's arguing this. The caveat is that there are r'n'b musicians who are taking influence from current trends in other genres. There's currently a heavy exchange going on between white hipster music and black pop music, but the trade is of a very specific kind, and I think that's why critics are latching on to it.

So you've got "Do You" with all these dreamy chillwavey sounds. The music is warm and enveloping like a hot towel, except with this explicit-as-you-like reference to drugs - perhaps kind of shocking. It's uncomfortable to hear someone sing about drugs in this way, as this innocuous, romantic thing, as though they were no different from fine wine or Italian food. And yet the vocal has been muddied up with a lot of reverb and overextended syllables with very little vibrato, which has been a key trope in a lot of Pitchfork-type indie over the last 8 or 9 years. The effect covers up the word "drug" so that the consonants morph and move around, sometimes it sounds like "drugs", other times like "hugs" etc... This is very reminiscent of something (I'm gonna say it) Animal Collective would have done circa Feels, and something that has been taken and run with by a gamut of Pitchfork bands from Ariel Pink to Dirty Projectors to whoever else.

The floaty comedowny feeling and explicit drug references are very similar to this track by JJ from a year or two back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biVETVmwxgg

JJ were prime suspects in this debate when it first kicked off. You can see why people found them irksome - hipsters taking a Lil Wayne song, changing the lyrics so they're about ecstasy; I dunno, I remember a lot of people on ILX considering them a bit of a joke at the time.

But I just think it's interesting that there's this exchange going on - Lil Wayne -> JJ -> Miguel. Whether the JJ and Miguel similarities are intentional or not, I don't know. It's likely he never heard the JJ song. Still, trying to deny that there is nothing going on (for better for worse) on either side of the spectrum (assuming there is a spectrum) seems to be missing the point.

I've only heard one cocorosie album and it sounded like My Little Ponies braying in a haunted house

lol

I spend all my time doing things that may be a bit tangential, but I think I'm going to go back to the core, the white music. Billy Corgan.

http://grungereport.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/billyhands.jpg

lol xp

i have to say it but saying "Billy Corgan and that white energy is powerful" is the only thing with a kernel of insight in the whole interview, the rest is incoherent if not contradictory

what clowns

i wdn't say "insight", i'd maybe go so far as "makes grammatical sense"

AA: “When Voodoo came out, if you read the reviews, people were like, ‘he’s mumbling’! You know, a good example is Terence Malick, the filmmaker. His movies to us are like divine breaths on film, but a lot of people really struggle with the lack of dialogue. Or Nirvana, that’s a great example – if you read the lyrics to ‘Smells Like Teen Spirit’ it’s like, what did he say? None of the teenagers knew what the hell he was saying – it’s ultimately a feeling.

“But the lyrics are really fundamental.

Wow. These guys aren't the smartest are they? And that track on the link sounds like a first demo for something someone might be thinking of finishing off one day when they can be bothered.

i'll stick with the last Britney album. my kinda nu-r&b.

"Music today is tribal – not tribal as in an aesthetic, but like we’re all part of a tribe. "

whole interview reads like an onion article

otm

White power is energetic too

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/124/339500000_9bfce4ef90.jpg