Joy Division vs. New Order

I think my main problem about JD is that I cannot mention one Joy Division track that I really like. They are kind of overrated, particularly compared to better contemporaries such as The Cure and Magazine.

-- Charlie Howard (charlieflie...), September 12th, 2006.

Actually, speaking as someone who still claims New Order are their favourite band, I totally respect this position. Despite a few insanely good tracks I've always felt a bit uneasy about praising PCL as a whole. Seems they were just noodling about too much sometimes, the album has ups and downs, not really focused. (I mean this as no offense to ILMer Noodle Vague) So it's nice to hear someone express that, since I've not yet found the courage to admit it. And before I get attacked by PCL loving wolves I do understand the brilliance of Leave Me Alone, 586, The Village & of course Age Of Consent, but the rest...they were just kindof coasting. Not that it's BAD, but just not up to standards. You Silent Face doesn't do a whole lot for me anymore, but it still has a special place in my heart as the first song I remember hearing by them and thinking "I'm going to like anything else this band does" which was nearly true. ETC.

Anyway...

Icidentally, whether you agree or not that NO have made a lot better music than JD (I don't), you'd have to say that they've made a lot worse music, too.

-- Si.C@rter (carter.si@gmale.com), September 12th, 2006.

This is also a terribly good point which I'm at a loss as to how to address. The new Ian Curtis book paints him (Ian) as the maverick, the Throbbing Gristle fan, the one which would have steered them into much less commercial waters according to Paul Morley. I simply can't add anything more about this. We'll never know.

I would like to say upon reading further in this thread, though, that New Order have a rather unfair advantage in years. Who the hell KNOWS if Ian had lived and Joy Division had stayed together all this time if they wouldn't have put out just as much crap as New Order or more? Fuck people, we really don't know that for sure. You can't compare a few years to many years and come out ahead. It's not a fair comparison.

Grimly is correct that JD looks better and better all the time in the scheme of things. I'm the first to admit that. In fact, I really don't understand it. It's not just reliving my adolescence now that draws me to their records, it's the intricacies of Hannett's sound. I didn't know when I was a wee teenager that Hannett had so much to do with their sound, but I've heard his other records and I am beginning to unravel the subtle genius of Hannett. It all sounds different to me now than it did then, even Closer, which I couldn't listen to for years until now, just too painful you know? I mean I just couldn't listen to it, but I can now. And that's a victory for me. Really it is. Just to hear Hannett's work. And I daresay Closer is his best work. But I'll probably change my mind in a few months.

Gillian Gilbert was Ian Curtis in drag? I love this band!

-- Ned Raggett (ne...), September 13th, 2006.

And low and behold, Ned wins. I won't say all your jokes are good, Ned, but when you get it right, you really get it right. Cheers.

Ugh. Geir says The Cure and Magazine are better. Well...I pulled out Faith the other night, you see. And it was what I wanted to hear, there was a reason I pulled it out, but aside from a few tracks I thought "okay, but I've heard this enough times" Can't say that about JD. They continue to fascinate. Maybe not all their songs but most.

Magazine I feel almost like a virgin about. Never been able to get into them as much I would like. Don't hate them at all, but never felt firey and passionate about them. But I did buy their Hannett produced LP "The Correct Use Of Soap" some months ago and I did quite enjoy it. So I will give that another go because of you, and I appreciate the suggestion. Because I've got all this vinyl laying about and know I need to get to my recently bought vinyl records properly.

All is Hannett for me, sorry. No actually I won't apologize. I don't care about you lot, Tony Wilson and Vini Reilly know he was a genius among others. So if you don't care about him fuck you. Take your JD records home to mummy and surrender them.

thus, joy division. i still kick myself for blowing money on that.

heheh. whereas wilson's take on it has always been "they'd have been bigger than U2". useful things, dead rock stars, when you've got a singular point of view to peddle.