At what point did Jimmy Page realize his band was now on a downward arc?

regards,

REB

i'd always heard that in through the out door was mostly just plant and jones as they were the only one's who would show up at the studio. on the rare occasion that bonham and page would show up they were usually under the influence. that would explain the preponderance of synths on the record.

as for when page realized his band was on a downward arc i would wager he noticed some time around 1988, roughly a decade after the rest of the world.

Also, Presence is a great album as well imo....true "grunge"....captures the "drug sick dread" (as I saw LZ described once in Rolling Stone I think which i thought was a nice phrase for them).....I play it alongside Black Sabbath Vol 4 for super cocaine blues....

Live Aid? Not convinced. Obviously that's when Status Quo started going downhill...

A few years back Jimmy Page played live on an Australian TV show and literally had drool pouring from his pout. Heartbreaker.

Page was wracked with drugs in the last few years of the band, but JP Jones definitely picked it up and made their last album work quite well. Presence would be the best album for many rock bands working in 1975, that it isn't Led Zeppelins finest record doesn't mean it is bad.

Page and Plant's career after Zep kind of prove that the band was more than the sum of its parts. I do give Plant some credit for really attempting to try something different, it mostly isn't that great, but he did make the effort.

I am not so sure that the glue to that band was John Paul Jones, he probably has been involved in the most interesting music after the band. His solo record 'Zooma' is quite good, the record with Galas is pretty good, he did string arrangements on REM's "Drive" and produced the Butthole Surfers. When Page and Plant finally got back together to revisit the old days, they didn't invite Jones to the party and yet went ahead named the album "No Quarter" after one of his feature tunes. Everyone should have such friends.

https://youtu.be/HEzSDK747yc

Cool interview with the dude.

Jeff Koons fucking sucks as an interviewer

He reveals in this interview that All the guitar tracks on "Achilles Last Stand" were laid down in one night. That's some magnificent coke right there.

Which he euphemises as the "focus and work ethic" in those days. No shit

He also sounds kind of desperate to get laid. Could it be? He says "eligible bachelor" and "I'm still a young man."

I wonder if you're that level of famous can you just walk into a bar and have your choice? I doubt it

I'd say they probably realised they were on a downhill arc circa Knebworth when they were being described as dinosaurs.

Jimmy's death is going to hit me really hard

Was listening to Coda yesterday and was again reminded how I wish they'd swapped in "Wearing and Tearing" for "I'm Gonna Crawl" on ITTOD.

Page's "lady friend" as if a couple of years ago is an attractive redhead in her mid-'20s. I think he's probably doing OK.

*as of

There's obv some good stuff on both Presence and Door, but the downward arc began after Physical Graffiti. That was their last top-to-bottom classic IMO.

what a miserable interview. "i learned how to feel through listening to jimmy's music." goes a long way in explaining the utter poverty of jeff koons's artistic output.

Couldn't agree more. It's not often that I feel embarrassed for a celebrity but I did here

I'd say you could look at their 1977 tour as when Led Zep probably started to come unwound. All that went down in Oakland with Bill Graham's people was pretty dark and outlined in detail in Graham's autobiography. The day after that incident, Robert Plant's son died and they never played live in the US again.

I think this quote from Page sums it up: "I only got into heroin because I thought it could make me more creative. That was a big mistake."

(from Barney Hoskyns' oral history book)

Lol

what went down in Oakland in 1977?

from wiki

The tour also experienced some unsavory backstage problems, exacerbated by the hiring of London gangster John Bindon as Led Zeppelin's security coordinator. After a 23 July show at the "Day on the Green" festival at Oakland–Alameda County Coliseum in Oakland, California, Bindon, band manager Peter Grant, tour manager Richard Cole, and band member John Bonham were arrested after a member of promoter Bill Graham's staff was beaten after the performance. Graham's security man Jim Matzorkis had assaulted Peter Grant's 11-year-old son Warren for allegedly taking a dressing room sign. This was seen by Bonham, who then walked over and kicked the man. Later, when Grant heard about this, he went into the trailer, along with Bindon and assaulted the man with tour manager Richard Cole guarding the door. Bindon had stated he was provoked by members of Graham's crew prior to the incident.

Led Zeppelin's second Oakland show took place only after Bill Graham signed a letter of indemnification absolving Led Zeppelin from responsibility for the previous night's incident. However, Graham refused to honour the letter and assault charges were laid against Grant, Cole, Bindon, and Bonham when the band arrived back at their hotel. The four received bail, whereupon a suit was filed against them by Graham for $2 million. All four pleaded nolo contendere, receiving suspended sentences and fines.

The following day's second Oakland concert would prove to be the band's final live appearance in the United States.

After the performance, news came that Plant's five-year-old son, Karac, had died from a stomach virus.

First - Graham's account of the incident documented in his book - doesn't seem to be avail to steal in epub format 😣

2nd - having a son die is enough to rethink your entire life and all the choices you've made. Much love and prayers to RP

the way he found out about his son's death was particularly devastating. two calls, hours apart, with drastically different messages

Don't have the book in front of me so if I remember right, but basically the guy was stopping the kid from taking down a sign, Bonzo and the LZ security dudes pulled the guy to a trailer, tied him up and then beat him up bad. Then someone else from Bill Graham went to this trailer to see what was going on, got pulled inside and himself got beat up. If I remember right, the first guy had a bunch of front teeth knocked out, so this was a pretty serious assault and even Peter Grant was in on the beatings (i think).

The wheels certainly came off quite spectacularly didn't they? Like, from the beginning of the band up until the first half of 1975, this band had such an incredible run of luck. Then there's basically this stretch of time from Plant's car crash up to Bonham's death where the band certainly weren't so lucky.

The end of the '77 tour is so horrible, and Plant...jesus to lose a child while yr on a tour where the guitarist is continually "sick", where there's all this dark, weird energy going on, like last 20 minutes of "Goodfellas"...The Hoskyns oral history covers it a lot, like how no one from Zep came to the funeral, Plant had fully retired from the band and Bonzo had to talk him back.

I've often wondered if part of Plant's hesitancy to go full on reunion has something to do with the '77 flame out.

like how no one from Zep came to the funeral

Bonham did, didn't he?

yea he was the only one, JPJ and Page didn't.

where there's all this dark, weird energy going on

Yeah, totally. There was definitely a weird energy going on. A Presence, you could say.

Why didn't JP and JPJ go?

According to Richard Cole, JPJ was "out of contact" and "only knew to be in New Orleans for the show at the Superdome." No one could find Jimmy. Peter Grant didn't go, either.

I didn't used to be a big fan of "All of My Love" but once I learned it was about Karac it had a much bigger impact on me.

Richards, Keith. "Dr. Shakyhands or: How I Learned to Stop Noodling and Love the Riff." Journal of Comparative Metaphysics (Yale, 1971): 245-246.

https://media.tenor.co/images/a47c621cd8751316e52988b712ccd20c/tenor.gif

This photo where the band seem to know the end is nigh:

https://goo.gl/images/dTE8VX

"We think we're new wave...kinda?"

sort of agree with post about worries that punk was turning zeppelin into dinosaurs. i think their turn (after "houses") from more or less guitar-driven music into "sophisticated" music was more or less of a necessary diversion (let's experiment, let's talk about our feelings) that kind of failed, or was at least deemed a path not worth pursuing further.

page:

"We both felt [Page and Bonham] that In Through the Out Door was a little soft. I was not really very keen on "All My Love". I was a little worried about the chorus. I could just imagine people doing the wave and all of that. And I thought, 'That is not us. That is not us.' In its place it was fine, but I would not have wanted to pursue that direction in the future."

a different direction was pursued, of course, and i think that the recordings from "coda" show that page, if nobody else, seriously thought that led zeppelin had relevance in the punk era, and could maybe even beat them at their own game (forget which song specifically was kind of like a faux-punk "fuck you, we invented this" kind of thing)

Wearing and Tearing

didn't Lester Bangs say "Communication Breakdown" invented punk or something similar

(forget which song specifically was kind of like a faux-punk "fuck you, we invented this" kind of thing)

"Wearing and Tearing," I believe. Just listened to it yesterday. It's a decent enough song, and would've sounded out of place on ITTOD, but it's no "Communication Breakdown" (or, for that matter, "Complete Control").

ha xp

xpost he also said "“All humans are the same sex, except albinos.”

Chuck E pointed out "Communication Breakdown" and "God Save The Queen" had similar riffs, except the Pistols had to slow it down.

"How Led Zeppelin’s “Communication Breakdown” sparked The Ramones’ American Punk Rock revolution"

https://dontforgetthesongs365.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/how-led-zeppelins-communication-breakdown-sparked-the-ramones-american-punk-rock-revolution/

Mickey Leigh of The Rattlers was the one who not only introduced Johnny to Led Zeppelin as he explained in his book, I Slept with Joey Ramone: A Family Memoir, when he recalled this famous exchange with the future guitarist of The Ramones when he wrote, “One day, I started playing Led Zeppelin’s “Communication Breakdown,” and John was really impressed.
“Wow, you know about down strokes, huh?” John said.
“Whaddaya mean, down strokes?” I answered.
“Ya known, how you’re picking everything downward” John said, motioning.
“I’m just trying to play how it sounds.” I explained.
“Yeah, well that’s really important,” John told me. “Most people don’t realize that. That’s how rock & roll should be played. All of it! Everything should be a down stroke.” In retrospect, I believe Johnny had begun formulating the concept for the Ramones sound even back then.”

i just looked at van halen i had been out for about half a year before they started the sessions for in through the out door, which is certainly a weird reaction album to make if you were indeed scared of the new hotshots on the block, plus i'd imagine page was so smacked out anyway

by time van halen ii comes out in 79 the band barely exists at that point, and bonham is dead in 80

Wasn't In Through the Out Door recorded at ABBA's studio? Rock'n'fuckin' roll!

Although, to be fair, John Bonham had begun to resemble Benny Andersson by 1980.

also here is rat scabies from the damned:

"I really didn’t like any of the songs that were long, but they had really cool short-riff rock songs that motored with a pretty good energy. In 1975, we might even admit that "Communication Breakdown" had punk energy."

that said, had mr. scabies read the essay, linked upthread, by margaret moos pick (co-founder of "prairie home companion" and author of zero books on music) that so perceptively articulates that "a riff is a short melody—just a few notes—repeated over and over in a rhythmic manner"? probably not.

i'm beginning to think that this whole "rock N roll" thing was more about using your own ears, forming your own opinions, and creating what feels right in the moment, rather than citing sources, though i could be wrong.

and yeah, there's no way jimmy page was listening to van halen and, sweat forming on his forehead, being like "oh wow i really need to get my act together, step up my game what"

One great thing about a mullet is that less sweat forms on your forehead

I'm picturing Jimmy Page turning up to a Van Halen show and begging them to let him onstage, like Eddie did to Nirvana

and like Bonham did to Deep Purple, except Bonham went onstage anyway!

http://https%3A//s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/0d/8d/a8/0d8da865fa1f3fc69886ee3aa1601dd6.jpg

and like Bonham did to Deep Purple, except Bonham went onstage anyway!

haha waht I haven't heard this story

no idea if that worked, here's page and eddie being buds:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/0d/8d/a8/0d8da865fa1f3fc69886ee3aa1601dd6.jpg

lol at "she's doesn't get rock and roll, she's written ZERO books, man"

x-post to Shakey:

Bonham turned up drunk to a Deep Purple concert during the Tommy Bolin years, and ran onstage, grabbed a free mic, informed the audience that there was a new Zeppelin album coming out which was "fuckin' great" and then said something like "and Tommy Bolin can't play for shit!"

and like Bonham did to Deep Purple, except Bonham went onstage anyway!

Good luck stopping him.

Ol' Dirty Bonzo

There's a similar story about when Zep (minus JPJ) saw The Damned. The band had blasted through a 20-minute set, and bad just left the stage when Bonham jumps up, grabs a mic and demands they come back. "We play for four fucking hours! If the Mouse [sic] Scabies doesn't want to, I'll play drums!"

that story rules

Damned Damned Damned always kinda reminded me of the heavier tracks on Zep I,just the way the riffs were double or triple tracked (at least to my ears)

Riff, you say.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/36b0f503e33b0c8ca4522025768468e3/tumblr_o0231eomC41tjydheo1_400.gif

Dudes, don't worry too much about Page getting overshadowed by Eddie. He got out on the frontier again a few years later when he started The Firm, thus providing the blueprint for shitty post-DLR Van Halen albums.

radioactive is a great jawn

Dudes, don't worry too much about Page getting overshadowed by Eddie. He got out on the frontier again a few years later when he started The Firm, thus providing the blueprint for shitty post-DLR Van Halen albums.

ultimately i wonder if the answer to the thread's title question isn't the year that very photo was taken, 1993

The year that The Complete Studio Recordings was released? Maybe.

Correct answer: never because every Zep record rules

hell yeah

xpost exactly. thread over.

now back to riffs vs. licks

hell. yes.

If you need a date-based answer, Ecomium was released in 1995.

I am not so sure that the glue to that band was John Paul Jones, he probably has been involved in the most interesting music after the band. His solo record 'Zooma' is quite good, the record with Galas is pretty good, he did string arrangements on REM's "Drive" and produced the Butthole Surfers.

Was reading an interview w/Paul Leary the other day where he said JPJ was a horrible drunk during the Wormhole sessions, wonder if that might be why Jimmy and Plant didn't invite him on No Quarter?

Weird, I remember jpj claiming the opposite - that Gibby was too drunk to perform the vocal on "Alcohol" ("so that was kind of poetic")

hahaha well I for one have a hard time believing Gibby Haynes of the popular straight edge band Butthole Surfers was wasted in the mid 90s, likely story JPJ

obvs any butthole is an unreliable narrator, but the way leary phrased it this was by jpj's own admission, tho also not hard to believe plant/page assholically snubbing the man who made ittod listenable for no quarter

Thought that stood for In Their Time of Dying at first.

Gibby:

When the “Independent Worm Saloon LP” was released in 1993 after Nirvana broke, it was produced by John Paul Jones, how did that work for you guys?

Oh, yeah, he was like a horrible drunk when we were doing that record, but we were loaded too. We spent so much money on that record! We basically spent a fortune to hang out with some guy from Led Zeppelin!

That reminds me of some anecdote I read a long time ago about a band in the late '90s that approached JPJ to do some orchestral arrangements, and he quoted them a fee that was "...equivalent to the combined budgets for the first couple Zep albums..." and the band balked. This was funny because this was a pretty huge band* and probably could have easily afforded it.

*Whom I don't remember...I wanna saw it was the Chili Peps, but didn't Jones work them earlier?

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/dec/19/robbie-williams-wins-pool-planning-victory-over-jimmy-page