Magic: The Gathering C/D

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That sentence was supposed to go "At least genital warts implies sex has been had at some point in your life." Ooops.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Tuesday, 21 January 2003 18:15 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

>We tried to revive it this year but the school we go to now has serious players

Yeah, Magic is a game that completely falls apart when people start to take it seriously. It quickly becomes that only certain cards in certain types of decks have a chance of winning, and often in very boring, cheepo, lucky-draw fashion.

Casual play is ok, but is still too expensive.

fletrejet, Tuesday, 21 January 2003 18:19 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Lots of fun if played with somewhat random decks but totally sux if anyone's taking it seriously. The whole suspended reality thing hits me pretty hard so I really get into the cards.

toraneko (toraneko), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 00:35 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I'm still into the casual play aspect and mostly out of competitive play. Expensiveness of it all = clearly dud though.

Vinnie (vprabhu), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 06:14 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

There was a pretty funny article in Salon a couple years ago about the early days at Wizards of the Coast, which apparently resembled a geek version of Fellini's Satiricon, before the company went and sold out to THE MAN.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 07:34 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

ok here goes.

if you're going to play magic, you MUST play by tournament rules. you needn't bother playing if there are no limits placed on the composition of the deck. wizards of the coast probably still publishes its "restricted/banned" card list as well. check it out.

when i was about 15 to 16 i played in magic tournaments EVERY sunday, and played recreationally with friends most evenings. yes, you could say that it was a very signifigant part of that time in my very sad teenaged life. at one point in the remote northern alberta town of 35,000 i grew up in there were three comic shops that all pushed magic quite heavily and at least a couple more places where the cards were available. some people took it VERY seriously.

i won't argue that magic is a tremendous cash sucker, and ultimately it taught me nothing about anything (there is little about the game that transfers to other pursuits) but there is a tremendous beauty to the inner workings of the game. it's not just about how much money you spend on it. in tournament settings, i was able to consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs (engineers, systems analysts) simply by spending a lot of time evaluating how the cards in my deck worked together. quite often the answer is not an "expensive" card but four cheap, nasty ones.

fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:20 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

oh and just for the record i don't play anymore and haven't touched a card in about four years.

fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:21 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

if you're going to play magic, you MUST play by tournament rules.

Why? I mean, in a tournament of course you do, but what about those of us who are, err, "casual players" as it were and just want a nice game to waste some time with as opposed to a weapon to "consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs"?

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 23:52 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Tournament rules are for people who actually know all the instant-kill power card combinations. And tournament rules are constantly changing because people figure out new ones.

fletrejet, Thursday, 23 January 2003 00:28 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

but what about those of us who are, err, "casual players" as it were and just want a nice game to waste some time with as opposed to a weapon to "consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs"?

dude i was like fifteen ...

fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Thursday, 23 January 2003 05:29 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I sold all my cards to some dork for like $20.
I still sometime would like to play, but alas; it is too expensive.

A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 23 January 2003 05:51 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

dude i was like fifteen ...

Haha, maybe that was a bit too nasty on my part, but still- why not play any way you bloody please (or was that "You MUST..." comment just the way you saw it when you were 15?)

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 23 January 2003 11:32 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

If we judge a game by its players, and I judge this by the few people I've ever met or seen who play it, it's as dud as it comes. (This is not meant to comment on the people here, none of whom I have met.)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 23 January 2003 18:24 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I used to play... PROFESSIONALLY. How sad is that? You can make good money at it to be honest. The saddest thing most times are people who play it. It's 90-95% male, they're all super homophobes too. I used to wear t-shirts that implied I was gay just to mess with the competition.. and to get pictures of me in em in Magic publications (yes, there are a few). I enjoyed the game and the rules, and I met some good people along the way. The best part about Magic players is that they are willing to play almost anything.. so once you get fed up with Magic (which everyone does), they will try any other activity or game (Set, Settlers of Cataan), and jump on it.

I'm going to be branded a geek now.. aren't I?

Christopher (Christopher), Monday, 3 February 2003 22:41 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

This is an internet message board Christopher = we are all geeks.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 3 February 2003 22:44 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

it's fun, if you have money to waste and friends that don't take it seriously.

webber (webber), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 00:07 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

I used to wear t-shirts that implied I was gay just to mess with the competition..

Let's count the ways we could parse that sentence, hmm?

Chris P (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 01:41 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

Let's make that a little clearer... heh.

A lot of Magic players are homophobic (in my experience) and in order to throw them off of their game, I would wear a shirt that symbolized gay pride.

What's really scary is that I'm thinking about playing in a sealed deck PTQ in a couple of weeks just to see if I can still compete after not playing for years.

Christopher (Christopher), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 16:24 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
Who up in this bitch fancies a game of memory M:TG*? I'm bored.

* (the one where you start with no cards in your card, draw one of your choice per turn, and no card can be played twice? It's kinda fun...)

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Sunday, 18 April 2004 14:34 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I used to play a lot around 14-16 and did pretty good, but when I think
of all the money I spent on cards that just sit in boxes up in my closet
I get all teary-eyed. Those should be records sitting idle, not cards!

stephen morris (stephen morris), Sunday, 18 April 2004 16:35 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Dud as hell. When I was 12 or 13 or so I went with my friend (who was into Magic cards at the time) to a Magic the Gathering "tournament" being held at the local Barnes & Noble. While my friend was playing Magic with someone, I walked around watching the others in attendance. At one table this guy playing said something like "I'm playing the Wall of Flame card". This other guy at the table said, "I'm gonna play the Wall of Pubic Hair card, hehehehhehe" in this horribly nasal and stereotypically nerdy voice. That was when I realized that there were people far nerdier than I could ever be.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 18 April 2004 17:24 (twelve years ago) Permalink

three months pass...
The game itself = Classic: it will be around for years to come, probably our nerdier kids will be into it or some incarnation of it.

The "90-95% super homophobe" players mentioned above = DUD. If I was rich (xpost it's expensive xpost) I'd probably play Magic Online, and not have to see the fat guys with "horribly nasal and stereotypically nerdy voices" that unfortunately define the game.

Richard K (Richard K), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 03:55 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I can't believe I never posted to this thread. I probably spent twenty bucks on it total, maybe thirty. It was one summer, a fun thing, a moment in time, a nice little cultural artifact.

teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 04:06 (twelve years ago) Permalink

three years pass...

i've been having a lot of "fun" playing with the old cards I rescued from my mom's house. i refuse to spend another cent on the game, however.

ian, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:09 (nine years ago) Permalink

a couple years ago i went to a card & comix shop and built a decent blue-white deck for like $4.00, but all the newer card editions just had all these new retarded esoteric abilities that i had no idea about

elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:16 (nine years ago) Permalink

also, the art was all these, like, cyber dragons and BULLSHIT

elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:21 (nine years ago) Permalink

We should start an ILG thread where we play against each other using SCANNERS.

nickalicious, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:25 (nine years ago) Permalink

i only played magic for the first time a few weeks ago, how weird is that? i was intimidated by the kids who played it in high school, but it's not half as complicated as i thought.

bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:50 (nine years ago) Permalink

you should have been more intimidated by their allowances

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:56 (nine years ago) Permalink

and/or dedication to blowing every dollar earned at the drive-thru window sunday 5am-1:30pm on crazy junk instead of like cigarettes and cds

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:57 (nine years ago) Permalink

that is correct i am calling you bustas out

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:57 (nine years ago) Permalink

what are you talking about, i pinched a franklin from my dad's wallet to buy a mox jet

elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:01 (nine years ago) Permalink

haha, i think i was most intimidated by their cliquish aspie superiority complexes.

i think it's really fun now though.

bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:03 (nine years ago) Permalink

ok http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Andy/ProjectEBAY/MagicCards.html these prices are so retarded omg

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

people should all be blown up

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

in my middle school the biggest fight i got into was between pog players and m:tg players

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:09 (nine years ago) Permalink

i was obviously a magic player

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:09 (nine years ago) Permalink

green & white deck, in case anyone is wondering

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

omg pog

deeznuts, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:12 (nine years ago) Permalink

if i remember those years correctly i was more worried about the shame my seminoles starter jacket would bring me after danny wuerrfle's gators pounced on them in the orange bowl than anything having to do with those fucking things

deeznuts, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:14 (nine years ago) Permalink

I used to play magic back in the mid-nineties, I still have a hundreds and hundreds of those cards in some box around here. I never paid much for them though, because I stole most of them from bookstores. I wonder if that stuff is worth something these days, the oldest cards I have are from Revised Edition or whatever it was called.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:24 (nine years ago) Permalink

god, my nerd days were spent playing Avalon Hill wargames. and banging chicks of course

brownie, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:26 (nine years ago) Permalink

my best nerd days are ahead of me still.

bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:27 (nine years ago) Permalink

mine did not look quite as good as this one but I got pretty good

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (nine years ago) Permalink

i had a revised shivan dragon worth $50

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (nine years ago) Permalink

and my color selections were more noise

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (nine years ago) Permalink

haha shivan dragon. back in 1995 my friend's proudest accomplishment was owning 4 shivan dragons. I wonder if those cards are worth anything today.

burt_stanton, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:04 (nine years ago) Permalink

blue + black deck, my sengir vampires and royal assassins were so so gangster.

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

i had two revised royal assassins

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

maybe more, hell if i remember

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:11 (nine years ago) Permalink

i forced RB minotaurs like every draft

ciderpress, Monday, 21 November 2016 20:29 (one week ago) Permalink

yeah Theros is a good case study in how 2nd and 3rd sets can really ruin a draft format

my issue with drafting lands is that there's too much guesswork in it. I hated passing up good cards for lands because you're afraid you won't get enough, especially when you've got people trying 5-color builds where they just snap up every one they can get.

frogbs, Monday, 21 November 2016 20:31 (one week ago) Permalink

Man, I love Kaladesh draft, more than most of the formats mentioned here. I love that fun, build-around synergy decks are easy to make and competitive with straight-ahead decks, and the fact that pros STILL disagree on what archetypes are good is pretty remarkable IMO. The flavor of the set matches the gameplay well, and that also adds a little enjoyment value for me. It's my favorite format since ISDx3, I think

Vinnie, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 07:43 (one week ago) Permalink

have any of you had good RB decks in Kaladesh draft and if so what did they look like?

ciderpress, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 14:42 (one week ago) Permalink

also has anyone played the competitive draft league since my warning last week? i don't like how you have to lock in your entry fee before finding out how fast the draft queue is filling

ciderpress, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 14:44 (one week ago) Permalink

R/B is the one combo I don't think I've ever gone into, but there's a good artifact aggro deck there based around Salivating Gremlins, Embraal Bruiser, and Dhund Operative. The uncommon that kills a creature and hits the opponent for 3 is brutal.

frogbs, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 15:14 (one week ago) Permalink

i haven't had a good r/b deck. the common creatures are split in half between energy and artifact synergy and kind of meh overall. and the couple times i have tried the lookout/skiff deck i have wanted to quit magic. the problem with aggro (certainly in limited) is how dependent you are on your opening hand and i think however you go with this archetype that factor is even worse, adding in synergy elements as a layer on top of having the exact right mix of early beaters/tricks/removal. too easy to find yourself with just a handful of shit cards.

Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 21:05 (one week ago) Permalink

anyway, i came to ask if anyone has tried the new cube, the one that won the competition. i haven't even looked at it. wouldn't mind trying something different over the holiday weekend and avacyn restored not really calling to me...

Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 21:09 (one week ago) Permalink

Aggro in general isn't great in this format. One because red is a shallow color (and I would argue the worst of the five), two because there are a lot of very good midrange creatures - the 2W 3/3 and 2GG 4/4 Trample (with Fabricate) are tough roadblocks to get over. In fact Fabricate in general is bad for aggro since you don't want your opponent dropping two creatures a turn. Plus, there aren't a whole lot of good uncommons to support the archetype. Pretty much all the good aggro decks I've seen were based on dropping a Renegade Freighter and backing it up with combat tricks in order to force your opponent into bad decisions.

frogbs, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 21:29 (one week ago) Permalink

I like how they tried to bury AVR flashback week with this new cube

ciderpress, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 22:31 (one week ago) Permalink

yeah that format was pretty awful, so many all-or-nothing style cards and so little removal, plus the highest concentration of bomb rares I think I've ever seen in a set

frogbs, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 22:32 (one week ago) Permalink

i kind of like aggro decks in this format although my draft win % is the lowest its been since origins and i have my worst ever gp performance in this format so my opinion is pretty garbage. i havent drafted a tonne of r/b since i generally prefer pairing either color with white but i have had and played against some good r/b decks. unlicensed disintegration is obv a great card but the tricks in r/b are very strong and can be hard to beat with a lot of the other cards (w/ the exception of select which is such a killer trump) and engender a lot of bad blocks/misplaying by my opponents. i think ive gone 2-1 with every r/b deck ive done. i usually screen shot all my draft decks so i can probably find the handful of r/b decks ive drafted but theyre mostly just traditional aggro decks w/an emphasis on built to smash and the two mana black tricks. i also really like the bat in those decks. fwiw my worst results in this format are still with bad multi-color green decks

cider i played a couple of the competitive draft leagues last night and the average wait was like ~2.5 minutes for a match. cant remember how long i waited for the q but it wasnt that long. actually shorter than the twisted cube league q i played im pretty sure.

( ^_^) (Lamp), Tuesday, 22 November 2016 22:33 (one week ago) Permalink

ok good to know, when I tried it I waited 10 minutes for my 1-0 match and decided to go back to the other queue after that

ciderpress, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 22:36 (one week ago) Permalink

re: AVR, there's glimpses of a neat aggro-combo draft format in there, kinda reminds me of shadowmoor a bit, but the execution was so comically poor

ciderpress, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 22:43 (one week ago) Permalink

yeah they just got so many things wrong - completely nerfing Black for one, then giving it such a weird subtheme (cards that only work if you have one creature in play), stacking Green and Blue with most of all the good stuff, making Red and White both combo and aggro with a bunch of alpha-strike style cards, and to top it off filling it chock full of bomb rares that couldn't be beaten because there was so little removal in the set

frogbs, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 22:52 (one week ago) Permalink

but you're right, there is the core of something intriguing in there

frogbs, Tuesday, 22 November 2016 22:53 (one week ago) Permalink

I drafted R/B at my first irl Kaladesh draft this past weekend. Went 3-1, the deck was good. I leaned heavily on black cards and vehicles - I still think red is pretty weak in this set, and I was mainly playing it for the 3/3 dragon and Pia Nalaar

Vinnie, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 01:30 (one week ago) Permalink

AVR had a bunch of problems. Almost no control archetypes to speak of (like triple ZEN). Black was super underpowered, you had to open some key uncommons to make it work. Stupidly powerful commons like Mist Raven and Trusted Forcemage. The theme of the set is barely noticeable in the gameplay. I got the sense that they ran out of time developing it

Vinnie, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 01:40 (one week ago) Permalink

wondering if my lower win % (and maybe yours lamp) has something to do w/ playing in leagues rather than the format itself

iatee, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 01:59 (one week ago) Permalink

maybe - i had a string of about four 2-0 starts where i got stomped in my third round by insane decks that just wouldnt have been possible in my own draft pod but otoh ive def been the beneficiary of same so i think it averages out. i definitely have more 2-1 finishes than i used to - ive now done like 50+ leagues and 40 of them are 2-1 finishes - but if anything that probably helps my win rate. i just dont think im very good at drafting this format, the traditional sort of midrange 'take the best card' strats i like are just hard to put together because the overall card quality isnt there. amusingly i had a pretty high win rate in AVR when it was the new set (in fact i built my mtgo bankroll on the weird 16/8s the ran during AVR) because i just forced red aggro every draft. my problem in KLD is keep taking arborback stomper P1P1 and getting hooked, no discipline to just take that built to smash...

( ^_^) (Lamp), Wednesday, 23 November 2016 02:26 (one week ago) Permalink

one thing about leagues is that you miss those free wins you could easily pick up by opponents that just don't show up. if you went 0-2 in a Swiss you'd often get a free win just for showing up.

frogbs, Wednesday, 23 November 2016 03:13 (one week ago) Permalink

blow up the board and then cast another spell for free? what could possibly go wrong?

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/cards/aether-revolt/28071-yahennis-expertise

Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Tuesday, 29 November 2016 23:06 (five days ago) Permalink

well that is a rather interesting idea

frogbs, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 23:11 (five days ago) Permalink

that is pretty good

there's also a new trinket/treasure mage that gets cmc 3 artifacts, which is peculiar

ciderpress, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 23:15 (five days ago) Permalink

artifact soulshift dude p interesting too, possibly a hint that sacrifice will be a theme, and more onbviosuly that recursion will be expanded on from kld

Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 23:37 (five days ago) Permalink

onbviosuly!

Roberto Spiralli, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 23:38 (five days ago) Permalink

well those are all rares besides trophy mage so can't read too much into them

ciderpress, Tuesday, 29 November 2016 23:46 (five days ago) Permalink

true

Roberto Spiralli, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 00:31 (four days ago) Permalink

initial guess is that Energy will be back but Fabricate won't

frogbs, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 14:21 (four days ago) Permalink

energy and vehicles are obviously being continued. they said they were going to stop dropping major mechanics in small sets since people get mad every time they do it even when it makes sense

ciderpress, Wednesday, 30 November 2016 14:44 (four days ago) Permalink

and the couple times i have tried the lookout/skiff deck i have wanted to quit magic

so get this...the 4-5x Night Market Lookout decks are apparently very very good

(not necessarily because of the Lookout, but because of the 2cc Subtle Strike/Rush/Die Young at common)

frogbs, Friday, 2 December 2016 03:32 (two days ago) Permalink

nah i don't buy it. they are so fragile. if everything goes right they look unstoppable but if a single thing goes wrong they are total garbage.

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 2 December 2016 04:05 (two days ago) Permalink

Since we're talking about black commons, every time I draft Dhund Operative, my brain sings it to the tune of Smooth Operator

Vinnie, Friday, 2 December 2016 08:43 (two days ago) Permalink

i played start your engines for the first time last night and it was good!

ciderpress, Friday, 2 December 2016 13:53 (two days ago) Permalink

lol. just as a bad trumpet blast or did you have a lot of vehicles?

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 2 December 2016 14:48 (two days ago) Permalink

the only time i have ever seen it cast i was wrecked by it

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 2 December 2016 14:49 (two days ago) Permalink

i had a bunch of sky skiffs, a copter, and the aradara express in my deck but was kind of light on actual creatures

it not only won me every game i drew it but would have won me all the games i lost as well had i drawn it on my last turn.

ciderpress, Friday, 2 December 2016 14:55 (two days ago) Permalink

the only time i have ever seen it cast i was wrecked by it

― Roberto Spiralli, Friday, December 2, 2016 9:49 AM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is kind of definitional with sorcery pump spells

ciderpress, Friday, 2 December 2016 14:57 (two days ago) Permalink

yeah just 2 skiffs and an express and that is 18 hard to stop damage. that time i lost to it, the big thing was the sudden swing of them being able to attack with their regular dorks as well as the vehicles, it just blew open an otherwise stalled board.

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 2 December 2016 14:59 (two days ago) Permalink

i had a v sweet 2-1 draft this week that started flatwheel cruiser into flatwheel cruiser. my loss was to a fumigate/consulate surveillance control deck.

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 2 December 2016 15:02 (two days ago) Permalink

Always wanted to dick around with Start Your Engines - I've never had anyone play it against me even though people seem more than happy to play Inspired Charge (as the most obvious combat trick ever)...there seem to be enough tokens to make it work

As far as the Night Market decks - here's an example of one that went 3-0

http://i.imgur.com/6V49Yj8.png

Like I was saying, I don't think it's the Night Markets itself, it's the 2cc tricks that are so good with them

frogbs, Friday, 2 December 2016 15:27 (two days ago) Permalink

take those 5 1/1s out and put in 5 playable commons of m/l any colour and that deck is probably better. sometimes you win in 5 or 6 turns and you feel great. sometimes you don't and your opponent is ripping 4/5 drops and you are top decking 1/1s.

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 2 December 2016 15:40 (two days ago) Permalink

otm

Vinnie, Saturday, 3 December 2016 02:11 (yesterday) Permalink

a 3-0 GW deck, a rarity for me: http://imgur.com/a/JZnsJ

ciderpress, Saturday, 3 December 2016 04:08 (yesterday) Permalink

eddytrail hawk is probably the card i've shifted on the most over the course of the format, i went from never wanting to play it to never wanting to play white unless i'm playing it

ciderpress, Saturday, 3 December 2016 04:10 (yesterday) Permalink

yeah, a lot of cards in this set have shifted in my estimation. I don't think it's clear whether Furious Reprisal is better than Chandra's Pyrohelix, which I would have laughed off if you told me at the beginning of the format

Vinnie, Saturday, 3 December 2016 13:02 (yesterday) Permalink

reprisal has won me enough games that i'm sure it's better but it's not far and away better

ciderpress, Saturday, 3 December 2016 16:50 (yesterday) Permalink


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