Dancing About Architecture, the Early Days

have read, enjoyed, laughed at people not understanding most bits of xgau i've happened to come across but otherwise the rest of this era has never felt partic relevant to me and i've never been compelled to seek it out. i would be way more amenable to checking out old britcrit though so i guess this comes under national lines somewhat.

just in terms of the kael/lightning rod aspect though i do strongly feel that classic film crit will always be kinda more deathless, i know i'd rather and indeed do dig into more of that anyway

*Have never read any Robert Christgau, Dave Marsh or Richard Meltzer! <--------- UK centric!

(*the occasional review aside)

There are a lot of ways to approach this, but on the sheer-enjoyment level it's hard to top Bangs. On first exposure, he's a rollercoaster. He's also more of a journalist than the other guys, in the sense of just going out and seeing what's going on. More interviews, more on-the-scene type stuff that really gave a sense of not just the music he was writing about but the people and how it all felt on the ground. I think of Bangs as being on the street or in the club, whereas I think of the other guys as being a little more removed (even though obviously Christgau in particular has seen more gigs than I can dream of).

As criticism, I think Christgau's CG short-form bursts are genius, I love the compression and even sometimes the near-incomprehensibility of it. And Marcus' long-form is similarly inspired, though I think it sometimes lets in and gives rein to some pretty tendentious notions. Marcus' tendency to mythologize in particular is suspect, even when it's fun.

Christgau for musical taste

Meltzer for writing style

Kinda US-centric this poll?

Yes--again, a blind spot for me. Are there any UK critics publishing in that '66-'69 window who had as much long-term influence as these five? I don't know. I'd put Simon Frith on the same plane, but I don't think he started getting published until 1970.

Nik Cohn!

... well that's one, but 1966-69, probably not. I associate Bangs + Marcus with the 70s tho.

Considered Cohn, definitely.

So, yes, withdraw my US-centric objections on the ground that rock criticism was shit in the UK, 66-69

DJP makes a good point in that none of these guys wrote well or at all about the 80s/90s music he likes - DJP and millions of others. It's a baby boom thing

I think Christgau wrote well about '80s and '90s music, whatever you think of his actual taste.

Xqau made an effort- still does - but he missed the boat on a lot of the stuff Dan likes which is why he was never compelled to read old school rockcrit. This is not a criticism of Christgau, just my observation. not trying to speak for DJP either? Just commenting on what I see as a generational divide.

voted christgau, though i have love for all these guys except marsh - though it's possible i just haven't read the good stuff

Robot A. Hull should be on here.

Christgau doesn't get something pretty central to the sensibility of people who grew up in the 80s or later: jokey gothy horror grossout stuff. and he doesn't like music by nerdy introverts, unless those nerdy introverts pretend to be rock stars.

shorter me: he doesn't really give a fuck about indie culture.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

For me, Bangs is pretty much the only non-musician who has ever written anything worthwhile about music.

DJP makes a good point in that none of these guys wrote well or at all about the 80s/90s music he likes

Bangs gets a pass there obv.

wow. I'm disturbed by these results

Is is there anything more crushingly depressive and anti-life than celebrating music writers of the past? Just enthuse about something please!

Surprised by the results--thought for sure Christgau would win.

I think Christgau and Marcus wrote well about lots of '80s/'90s music--Marcus's "Real Life" columns from the mid-'80s were fantastic (Eddie Money and the Timex Social Club next to Sonic Youth next to Sam Cooke)--but DJP specified music that he likes, so that may well be true.

Depressive and anti-life? Just music writers of the past, or should we throw novels and films in there too?

i'm guessing if the names of the options were in the thread title the Xgau stanbase would've overrun the thread and made it a landslide

i guess i always figured lester would win in a walk

there is like a tenth as much discussion of bangs as christgau on ilm though

If Xgau had died in 1981 no one would give a shit about him today.

Presumably the '70s book would still have come to light, and that's the one that means the most to me.

If Xgau had died in 1981 no one would give a shit about him today.

Does anybody who's not a music writer give a shit about him today?

I'm quite sure he has lots of old Voice readers who still check his MSN column regularly. Not writers, but people who've been reading him for decades. Old habits, etc.

gonna say, i'm amazed what a lively nerdtastic comments section he seems to have

There does seem to be a lot of writers and people who know him in there, but probably not all of them. ILM's Thus Sang Freud was a regular at one point.

Does anybody who's not a music writer give a shit about him today?

The thing is, there's nothing wrong with having your legacy be a readership that's mostly people who are in the field. In fact, it's quite a nice thing to have.

(And, of course, a lot more people are sort of "in the field" now via things like ILM or people's blogs, etc.)

I think that means a lot less when your field is entirely about another field. I think a lot more musicians were influenced by Bangs via Creem, but then I've never met anyone IRL who mentioned xgau. I guess it's a NY thing?

whatever gets you through the nights of incessant xgau jabber on ilx

xgau never had a print home in the uk afaik, but his name at least is familiar to britishes rockfans of certain age thanks to 'Take No Prisoners' (and his 70s record guide was fairly widely available as an import)

Didn't see this in time to vote, but I'll say briefly why I would have chosen xgau: his 70s Guide. As the post-Woodstock music biz was finding a way to ride and exploit the rising tide of mass bohemianism etc, the extended range of acceptable sounds, xgau also adapted, by extending the range of his voice as a writer. Some of his earlier ruminations (preserved on his site) slogged and droned, but the Guide compressed and crystalized his insighrs and assbites. Sometimes they organized impressions/suspicions/hopes I already had (Bangs) sometimes took a leap (Meltzer)(imagine xgau with one of those guys in the weirdly intimate Voice line-edit, which could be more like a character-edit in my experience). Bangs' writing was a feast, but sometimes a surfeit, like "Why should I bother listening to this platter, Bangs already served it up!" Also, seems like Christgau had more of a range as a listener than these other guys, though he never has had much use for metal. It helps that my taste seem to be similar to his (I've heard most of the records in the 70s Guide). Oh yeah, this was when he also had a much wider range of grades than later, examining a range of failures--as one musician said of another, "I didn't know you could make some of those mistakes!"

Even the long-ass early stuff could be first-rate when he was more the journalist; he's always been good at that.

yeah i used to post more on that xgau comment section. discovered i wasn't learning or laughing as much as i do here. they're smart guys but there's sort of a tribal mindset. or who knows, it's hard to generalize. i voted xgau tho.

"other" Nik Cohn, Rock From The Beginning, also published under other titles, as it should be , because it's not some blah-blah chronology, it's his own first-second gen.,still youthful lust for kicks, fed by Little Richard and Johnnie Ray, PJ Proby and Phil Spector, for instance. He can art-appreciate Bard Dylan, "and if he killed the thing I loved, well, that was hardly his fault." Nick Tosches, Country, both editions. Reminds me, the second edition of Mystery Train is where Marcus does truthfully deal with the later careers of his heroes. I'd like to read his Dead Elvis too. Loved Frith's Letter From Britain columns in Creem; are they in any of his books?

It's really weird, and a little scary, the extent to which the tastes/favorite music of people posting comments on that Expert Witness blog all seem to so slavishly mimic Christgau's tastes and favorites. I'm a longtime fan of his writing, obviously, but have always thought he's been wrong about all sorts of things (and right, metal is way up there. Though personally I'd say he has too much use for "indie culture" these days.) I've never understood the mindset that says critics can only be good if you agree with them most of the time, though.

Yeah, he def got me into some stuff I never would have even listened to otherwise. And one thing (maybe the only thing) I'll always like Paul Williams for (other than providing Crawdaddy as a home for more insightful writers, readers, listeners): his collection Outlaw Blues includes a very congenial late-60s conversation with a guy who says the last time he listened to "A Day In The Life", he started laughing; like, "Oh wow, is the record gonna blow up." Just over the horizon: Creemster apostates like Greg Shaw calling for and recognizing the return and extension of rock as pop (don't remember if Shaw in particular liked the Dolls, but Creem sure did).

Got me to *check out* some stuff I never would have etc., that is.

But Dylan Hicks is mostly nerf, and while xgau had to learn to love Ned Sublette's solo guitar, that's what really immediately grabbed me about Kiss You Down South. But I'm very glad he led to me to it. Also, still hate the icons in the 90s Guide; does he do that as much now?

You mean those goofy turkeys and bombs and useless waste-of-space "neithers" or whatever they were? I don't think so. Only positive reviews (and occasional honorable mentions maybe) nowadays, as far as I can tell.

But I don't read him anywhere near as religiously as I used to (and had to, for several years there, as part of my job). Have the site bookmarked, but weeks can go by without me thinking to click on it. And when I do, I often just quickly glance, at reviews and comments both.

Bring back the Turkey Shoot!

That was an antidote to the Gift-Giving Guides, the giftee-burning kind we get elsewhere this time of year.

It's really weird, and a little scary, the extent to which the tastes/favorite music of people posting comments on that Expert Witness blog all seem to so slavishly mimic Christgau's tastes and favorites. I'm a longtime fan of his writing, obviously, but have always thought he's been wrong about all sorts of things (and right, metal is way up there. Though personally I'd say he has too much use for "indie culture" these days.) I've never understood the mindset that says critics can only be good if you agree with them most of the time, though.

― xhuxk, Tuesday, December 11, 2012 11:58 AM (30 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i wonder if there's anyone in the world who's listened to a Wussy album but hasn't read Christgau

also missed the vote, and would've voted bangs. he has his faults, undoubtedly (some of which he addressed in his later writing, fwiw), but he can be so exhilarating and entertaining in full flight (thinking specifically the piece about playing saxophone at his landlady, White Noise Supremacists, his piece about Electric Miles in the second collection, the Metal Machine Music pieces).

Yeah, and his vision of the vision of the Godz was so compelling (and cautionary: pointed out that trurly inspired primitivism is hard t achieve). Good thing I didn't actually hear those records 'til way later, though; I might not have done what I done in between.

I wonder how different the experience of reading that Bangs' collection back in the late 80s would have been if I could have streamed all the music he was writing about instantly.