Year-End Critics' Polls 2012

good music tho

miguel's explicitly said he was aiming for the indie hipster audience with this album

i mean, it's really great and all, but there's still a whole swathe of r&b that doesn't fit into this faded/stoned/gentrified/vibesy aesthetic that gets flat-out ignored

In case anyone is still paying attention to the Guardian's endless rollout, their #7 is that Alt-J album. Never heard it myself.

The couple of Alt-J songs I listened to reminded me of tUNe-yaRds - or maybe I'm confusing them with Django Django.

OH MY GOD I DIDN'T REALISE UNTIL NOW WHAT THE ALT+J COMMAND ACTUALLY DID LOOOOOL, SUCH WALKING CLICHÉS

but there's still a whole swathe of r&b that doesn't fit into this faded/stoned/gentrified/vibesy aesthetic that gets flat-out ignored

This is true of basically any genre that has a mainsteam corner to it.

True, there is "hipster country" I guess, like maybe Justin Townes Earle, which gets more critical love than mainstream country, though less than pop-country like Taylor Swift.

but there's still a whole swathe of r&b that doesn't fit into this faded/stoned/gentrified/vibesy aesthetic that gets flat-out ignored

ignored by who? people like different music for whatever reason, it doesn't make them a hipster or indeed a dickhead. it's just their taste in music. you talk about rockism but my main memory of ilm railing against it was that it was about refuting the notion of received wisdom, or the idea that one piece of music was factually better than another.

people's right to personal taste is sacrosanct and above all else.

X-post Pop country rests like an oppressive smog over the rural areas of my homeland, I feel righteous in my hate.

there's still a whole swathe of r&b that doesn't fit into this faded/stoned/gentrified/vibesy aesthetic that gets flat-out ignored

Because it sounds significantly different? Surely every genre has people who like one aspect of it but not others. It's not all-or-nothing.

There's a difference between individuals liking what they like and a critical establishment pretty much ignoring a hefty swathe of a given genre that doesn't fit a particular aesthetic but that's how the vagaries of fashion work. But R&B isn't exactly unique in this regard.

disagree tbh lol

r&b fans becoming hipsters doesnt mean hipsters stop existing they are just more inclusive

ah okay i agree with this

It's not about fashion. It's about records being on the border of their genre and thus appealing to people who don't love the conventional tropes of that genre. It's the same process as any crossover record ever.

and the nature of a "critical establishment" in whatever sense those establishments matter anymore.

and the nature of a "critical establishment" in whatever sense those establishments matter anymore.

― Heterocyclic ring ring (LocalGarda), Thursday, December 6, 2012 10:24 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

they dont disappear tho, they just become more diffuse. there are still dividing lines between acceptable & not

true, but they are definitely less influential as far as i can tell. plus you know, people can decide things for themselves. whether that's to agree with what they read or not. everyone is capable of doing this.

It's not about fashion. It's about records being on the border of their genre and thus appealing to people who don't love the conventional tropes of that genre. It's the same process as any crossover record ever.

But there are many different borders to any genre and different ones tend to cross over at any given time according to wider musical trends. The kind of R&B that was crossing over 10 and 5 years ago is totally different to the stuff that's crossing over now.

Yes, sure. I don't understand why this is a problem or down to the "critical establishment" though.

I hate the critical establishment. Sitting around in their leather easychairs like overgrown potatoes, smoking pipes and ignoring true r'n'b.

something like Elle Varner's "Refill" makes zero waves w. ~hipsters~ why is this & is it fair & etc

i mean, its not because its BAD because its not a bad song, it's a great one. but there are some choices it makes that are not coding as 'cool'

the idea that all hipsters like similar music, or even are similar people, or that there even is common ground among the vast array of people who one might brand a hipster, is pretty misguided. there's not even a need to say this surely?

Even though we can hear pretty much whatever we want to at any given time, there's still only limited listening time and a mindboggling and terrifying volume of stuff out there so it's hardly surprising that tastemakers (not just critics) are still influential and important, people still gravitate towards the things that are getting the most buzz. People can judge for themselves obviously and gratifyingly there are still instances of hype bandwagons falling flat on their faces.

Even though we can hear pretty much whatever we want to at any given time, there's still only limited listening time and a mindboggling and terrifying volume of stuff out there so it's hardly surprising that tastemakers (not just critics) are still influential and important, people still gravitate towards the things that are getting the most buzz.

but it's still their opinion as to whether they like a given thing. nobody is controlling that. and realistically if you are unhappy with what is being provided you have more freedom than ever, today, to either find music yourself, or to find other places that recommend it.

plus the consensus isn't so hard-wired anyway, it's not as if eg pitchfork dominates chart radio or mass media.

maybe it's because the eclectic music fan simply doesn't have time to delve into every single facet of every single genre they are remotely interested in? and therefore they'll turn to the work of artists and groups covered by eclectic (but maybe indie/alt-leaning) sites to begin with?

i just can't abide this whole "OMG you are so stupid for liking (crossover genre artist) and not even giving (non-crossover artist) the time of day".

it's not because the latter is being outright ignored - it's because they slip under the radar of the general music fan.

this has and will always be the case for all genres. getting angry about it is utterly futile.

that was xposts

In fairness, R&B gets probably more hostility and outright dismissal than pretty much any other mainstream genre.

metal?

if i got annoyed every time someone harped on about mastodon and no other metal band, what would be the point in that?

Except metal, and country, and world music, and I'm sure even more.

xpost

In fairness, R&B gets probably more hostility and outright dismissal than pretty much any other mainstream genre.

from which people? statement means nothing without specifying

r&b is massively popular.

r'n'b saturates the musical landscape where i live. it's very much what most people listen to when i'm out and about. even in my market town there's a dedicated r'n'b club.

a lot of u guys are being hella defensive. idgaf what R&B you like or dont, but surely you recognize that there is this thing called "cool," and some very good music is not very cool, and is overlooked because of it

a lot of u guys are being hella defensive. idgaf what R&B you like or dont, but surely you recognize that there is this thing called "cool," and some very good music is not very cool, and is overlooked because of it

loads of good music is overlooked, but people's definition of "cool" varies massively from person to person.

don't know why someone simultaneously would hate "hipsters" and complain they don't like the same music as them, if they're indeed worthy of disdain.

what very good music is not very cool?

i mean god, the idea that all music we value should get "equal dues" or something... how on earth could someone ever reconcile what that even means? it's fucking ludicrous.

It's because you hear R&B all over the place that there's this really vehement dislike of it. I'm not even remotely talking about people who might in any way code as 'hipsters' here, just mainstream people I've met over the years, loads of them, who are into fairly straight-down-the-line indie or dance music who just fucking hate it, the very essence of it.

You probably get exactly the same thing with country in the US. Metal is not a mainstream genre.

wanting everyone in the world to like the same music as you is bonkers, can we at least agree on that?

It's because you hear R&B all over the place that there's this really vehement dislike of it. I'm not even remotely talking about people who might in any way code as 'hipsters' here, just mainstream people I've met over the years, loads of them, who are into fairly straight-down-the-line indie or dance music who just fucking hate it, the very essence of it.

because to them it's the mainstream, just as to someone here pitchfork is the mainstream, it's all just perception of what the status quo is and the natural human tendency to distance oneself from it as best one can with the tools available.

it's not as if hating the very essence of a music genre isn't done on ilm all the time.

loads of good music is overlooked, but people's definition of "cool" varies massively from person to person.

don't know why someone simultaneously would hate "hipsters" and complain they don't like the same music as them, if they're indeed worthy of disdain.

― Heterocyclic ring ring (LocalGarda), Thursday, December 6, 2012 10:57 AM (37 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't hate hipsters! but i think its fair to say that elle varner's refill is not popular w/ hipsters & that this says something

this doesn't have anything to do w/ my particular tastes; i like ty$ and i think he could easily become hipster-cool whereas "refill" doesnt really feel like it has that potential but i think it's an amazing song too. there is a certain quality about some music that is independent of good or bad that ppl gravitate towards or away from

there is a certain quality about some music that is independent of good or bad that ppl gravitate towards or away from

fair enough. though i think it's fairly arbitrary what music gains this quality and why... "cool" music has a tiny bit more in common at a given time than "uncool" music but still think it's arbitrary.

because to them it's the mainstream, just as to someone here pitchfork is the mainstream, it's all just perception of what the status quo is and the natural human tendency to distance oneself from it as best one can with the tools available

Yeah I agree with that, even if a lot of the people I was referring to were probably Kaiser Chiefs or Coldplay fans there's still that oppositional thing going on.

it's not as if hating the very essence of a music genre isn't done on ilm all the time

I totally agree. I still think it's more vehement and possibly nastier when R&B and to a lesser extent rap are concerned, anything that codes as 'chavvy' to enough people in the UK really.

there is a certain quality about some music that is independent of good or bad that ppl gravitate towards or away from

yeah it's funny how people seem to be pretending that things like image, which other acts an artist positions themselves with, PR angle etc have no effect on who gets hype or buzz

kalenna, elle varner, jade alston, keyshia cole, nikkiya, lyrica anderson, estelle, nina sky, even (relatively) dawn richard <= little to no buzz this year even though they made music that was as good or better than ocean, weeknd, miguel, jeremih

also r&b has no "chart" presence atm and has not had any for years

fair enough, matt, i agree with you really. i just feel the need to play devil's advocate whenever this notion of the unthinking masses is invoked. it is uglier, i agree, when it's about people perceived as lesser or whatever.

kalenna, elle varner, jade alston, keyshia cole, nikkiya, lyrica anderson, estelle, nina sky, even (relatively) dawn richard <= little to no buzz this year even though they made music that was as good or better than ocean, weeknd, miguel, jeremih

do you have a way of proving their music was better?

does elle varner need buzz?

FWIW I am pretty much talking about everyone except hipsters here. If you go into the right kind of hipster bar in East London you're probably more likely to hear Cassie or Ciara than a lot of indier R&B.

just mainstream people I've met over the years, loads of them, who are into fairly straight-down-the-line indie or dance music who just fucking hate it, the very essence of it.

mainstream people hating a mainstream genre more than any non-mainstream genre? (for argument's sake let's put entire genres into pot a or b)

lots of metal has bled into mainstream in the past tho. maybe r&b has become less mainstream (can only think of a handful of artists still big in this respect e.g. beyonce, usher...) in the way metal has...in the way every clear-cut genre or idea has?

kalenna, elle varner, jade alston, keyshia cole, nikkiya, lyrica anderson, estelle, nina sky, even (relatively) dawn richard <= little to no buzz this year even though they made music that was as good or better than ocean, weeknd, miguel, jeremih

Hmmm. There might be something other than image and positioning that differentiates one lot of artists from the other.

hipsters are sexist!