The ILC Favourite Characters Of All Time

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That one Doom Patrol episode where Cliff goes inside Crazy Jane's mind to bring her out of catatonia is one of the best Morrison stories I've read.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 21 September 2006 03:39 (seventeen years ago) link

Why haven't I read Doom Patrol? I loved reading about it in the loose-leaf Who's Who, way back when.
I think, though, when I was 14, that I needed a severance between my childhood lore (superheroes) and my adolescent lore (shitty novels), which is why I ready Hellblazer, I guess.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 21 September 2006 04:47 (seventeen years ago) link

What's also cool is that nobody else ever got their hands on her - unlike pretty much every other great superhero comics character, she was only written by one writer, and he was the creator.

James Morrison (JRSM), Thursday, 21 September 2006 07:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Didn't Rachel Pollack bring her back eventually?

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 21 September 2006 09:14 (seventeen years ago) link

NB I never actually wrote that letter, it was a jokey reference to the series of letters to HATE written by some lunatical.

I wrote a much more boring letter, which got printed.

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 September 2006 10:13 (seventeen years ago) link

I thought she'd ended up in the "real" world at the end of GMs run after Danny the Street grew into Danny the World.

Stone Monkey (Stone Monkey), Thursday, 21 September 2006 10:44 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, why isn't B.N.Duncan on this list? If I had it all to do again, he'd be my number one choice.

Vic F (Vic Fluro), Thursday, 21 September 2006 11:35 (seventeen years ago) link

Ragged Robin is a "hypertime" version of Crazy Jane, according to Grant (and wiki). Who nu?

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 21 September 2006 12:26 (seventeen years ago) link

anyone who read Invisibles advance publicity? (obv he didn't say "hypertime" then, but he probably wouldn't say it now)

kit brash (kit brash), Thursday, 21 September 2006 12:31 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't really understand hypertime, so I'm going to ignore it.

chap who would dare to contain two ingredients. Tea and bags. (chap), Thursday, 21 September 2006 12:39 (seventeen years ago) link

It's just a fancy word for parallel universes, I think.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 21 September 2006 13:12 (seventeen years ago) link

Why haven't I loved Doom Patrol?

Am I a reactionary square? (Leee), Thursday, 21 September 2006 15:42 (seventeen years ago) link

Mm, I'm not sure how it would date if you didn't read it when it first came out (It's early 90s-ness in excelsis). But there are a few stinkers in the run (The Sex Men, the endless Space War thing), so you might have read those.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 21 September 2006 15:59 (seventeen years ago) link

I don't know if I read those stinkers you mentioned -- I've read the first two trades within the past year. I think my thing about DP is the extremely compressed storytelling, or something, that makes a lot of what's going on seem like shorthand that refers to stuff that I'm not getting.

c('°c) (Leee), Thursday, 21 September 2006 16:06 (seventeen years ago) link

GM be like that huh.

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 21 September 2006 16:13 (seventeen years ago) link

I'd say try for the Candlemaker storyline at the end of his run (whenever it comes out in 2009) -- it's probably the closest GM has come to multi-issue decompression -- but if you don't like the first lot, there's probably no point going there.

Chuck_Tatum (Chuck_Tatum), Thursday, 21 September 2006 16:33 (seventeen years ago) link

19. Rorschach (Watchmen)

(126 points)

http://www.blogzine.com.br/rorschach.jpg

Hero-of-sorts from Watchmen, based on the old Charlton comic The Question (though I'm unsure whether Watchmen was during one of the characters lower-profile eras). For all that Owlman was the analogue of Batman, it's Rorschach that the subsequent decades of writers seem to have taken as a template.

And Rorschach with his self-conscious "life as art" attitude is actually a pretty Nietzschean superhero, so that quote fits in more than one way, although it's a pretty lame Nietzsche quote as Nietzsche quotes go. (I guess it's the popular favorite because it feeds off the legend of his madness?)(Chris F)

Actually, Pal Joey/Taxi Driver era Peter Boyle coulda made a great Rorschach. He's too old now. (HUK-L)

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 28 September 2006 10:56 (seventeen years ago) link

i don't think the question was too low profile cuz i remember me and all my friends definitely getting 'ok rorschach = the question' and not getting 'manhattan = captain atom' or 'owlman = blue beetle'. then again rorschach was definitely the 'coolest', big gateway into 'yknow all superheroes are fascist nutjobs right?' insight of age 12 (alongside concurrent dkr)(anyone bothering to still have this insight by age 14 really really needs the shit beat out of them), plus automatic 'o man this guy knows his shit' when deciding which superhero you chose to be when playing. a team of 12 year olds pretending to be rorschach, snake eyes, wolverine, and batman could take all comers (bar girls, aging, yr parents, etc).

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 11:06 (seventeen years ago) link

Making the extreme right Rorschach the ultimate martyr of the story and the well-meaning lefty Adrian the villain was probably the meanest, most genious trick Moore pulled in Watchmen. Though it could be seen as an anarchist's criticism towards communism and other authoritarian forms of leftism: Rorschach never sacrifices his integrity, whereas Adrian's utopia is covered with blood. So in the end we have no choice but to symphatize with Rorschach, as much as we hate that.

I always thought the "free to carve my own morality into the world" issue was kinda problematic regarding Rorschach's personality. If he was free to choose his morals, why would he still cling to the sort of conservative ideas he had previously? I don't think real extreme rightists ever go through such a moral epiphany.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 11:11 (seventeen years ago) link

really?

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 11:35 (seventeen years ago) link

Well, how many right-wingers have you heard saying, "You know, I really gave it a thought, and realized there was no god and that I can choose my own moral path, so I chose to hate hippies and negroes and women and anyone unamerican." I don't think conservatism works that way. Maybe Rorschach would've become a libertarian. (Or better, Moore should've left the whole "enlightenment" bit out.)

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:05 (seventeen years ago) link

There are plenty of threads for this. Go to one of the other ones. Both of you.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:18 (seventeen years ago) link

This thread is called "The ILC Favourite Characters Of All Time", I thought we can discuss the said characters here...?

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:26 (seventeen years ago) link

Call Andrew a fascist then, go on, I dare you.

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:28 (seventeen years ago) link

New boss, new rules. Though to be honest the only rule is "have the Superhero Politics discussion on one of the SP threads, thank you".

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:30 (seventeen years ago) link

Er, it's kinda hard to discuss Rorschach at all without touching his politics. But whatever...

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:34 (seventeen years ago) link

Rorschach at heart is a question (no pun intended) of identity. Kovacs takes up vigilantism for the same reasons as anybody else in the early days, but come the death of the kidnapped girl he assumes Rorschach as his prime identity. (The subversive role of this murder is mirrored later in the book too, in the effect it has on the doctor both in his home life - the re-telling over the dinner table is what finally convinces his wife to leave him, and the doctor is noticeably unemotional about the story - and public life, where his relationship to other people whether Rorschach or the watch seller.) Kovacs is now Rorschach in costume.

This is perhaps exemplified in his confrontation with his landlady once she has turned him in. He is there, Rorschach forced to be Kovacs, and recognises one of her children as him in his youth. Despite his sense of honour in what he does, he recognises the days of heroes are over and cannot run the risk of the child potentially turning into another version of him - so protects the child from the absolute knowledge of his mother's life and gives him another chance.

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:54 (seventeen years ago) link

(There, that wasn't hard, was it?)

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Thursday, 28 September 2006 12:55 (seventeen years ago) link

adrian's not a lefty, he's a neo-con

s1ocki (slutsky), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Yeah, Moore sort of hints in the end that Rorschach is about to change again, back into the more humane Kovacs (well, at least more humane than his previous self, which doesn't take much), hence he's "you're a good friend" speech to Daniel.

Rorschach really is the most interesting character in the whole comic; everyone else sort of serves the function they've given in the story, but he's goes through an arch of personal change. Okay, there's also Dr. Manhattan "humans are worthy" realization, but I never found that (or the whole character) as convincing as Moore may have intended.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 13:51 (seventeen years ago) link

What do you think Rorschach's taking off his mask at the end means? That he wants to die as Kovacs rather than Rorschach? Or does he simply try to appeal to Dr. Manhattan by showing his human face?

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 14:03 (seventeen years ago) link

One thought that occurs to me is that he realises he can't reveal Adrian's plan without causing more harm to the world, or at least he is not as sure as that course of action as he appears to be, but he is so in thrall to his rigid principles that he would rather die than falter - hence the scene can be read as a kind of suicide.

I think the whole conclusion of Watchmen is a lot more morally ambiguous than certain people are making out - Moore never really asserts an authorial opinion on Veidt's plan. Obviously our gut reaction is that it's an atrocity, but if it does, debateably to be sure, 'save the world', then can it be a wholly bad thing? I think Moore's intention is more to show notions of good and evil to be far more fluid and nebulous than they are generally portrayed in this type of fiction than to provide a simple reversal of expectations.

chap who would dare to contain two ingredients. Tea and bags. (chap), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Maybe the taking the mask off is a sign of confusion - he sees Veidt's plan as both the only hope for the world and a terrible crime that must be revealed.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 28 September 2006 15:58 (seventeen years ago) link

Moore never really asserts an authorial opinion on Veidt's plan.

Oh, I think he does, though in a clever way. The ending of Watchmen is well-known for it's openness - "I leave it entirely to your hands"; does Seymour pick up Rorschach diary or not? - and it's clear this is Moore's way of saying, "I leave it to readers to decide whether or not Veidt did right or wrong"... But he also sneaks in his own opinion inside the pirate story, which parallels the main story all the way through, and in which the protagonists ends up doing most hideous things only because he thinks he's protecting his loved ones, so in the end he is condemned for his sins and has to enter the black pirate ship. The fact that Veidt is his alter ego is made clear when Veidt says, "sometimes I dream of swimming towards a black ship...".

Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 28 September 2006 16:40 (seventeen years ago) link

then again rorschach was definitely the 'coolest', big gateway into 'yknow all superheroes are fascist nutjobs right?' insight of age 12 (alongside concurrent dkr)(anyone bothering to still have this insight by age 14 really really needs the shit beat out of them)

This is the only time I can remember ever being tempted to use the acronym QFT.

Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:30 (seventeen years ago) link

that's not an acronym, that's an abbreviation.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:32 (seventeen years ago) link

That's an acronym.

c('°c) (Leee), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:34 (seventeen years ago) link

SHAZAM is an acronym, because it's a pronounceable word. QFT (i don't know what it stands for) is just a bunch of initials.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:51 (seventeen years ago) link

About what kind of Queen's English nonsense are you talking?
Main Entry: ac·ro·nym
: a word (as NATO, radar, or laser) formed from the initial letter or letters of each of the successive parts or major parts of a compound term; an abbreviation (as FBI) formed from initial letters : INITIALISM

Wait, so we're both right, except you're righter. Yellowcard for you.

c('°c) (Leee), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:57 (seventeen years ago) link

what does it mean?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 17:59 (seventeen years ago) link

Quantum Field Theory Quoted For Truth, it's the outside world's version of OTM.

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 28 September 2006 18:05 (seventeen years ago) link

I didn't catch on until reading Watchmen, at about age 17. But yeah, I'd say I needed the shit smacked outta me.

It's the lazy and immoral way to become super hip. (Austin, Still), Thursday, 28 September 2006 18:28 (seventeen years ago) link

Quit Fucking Talking.

Casuistry (Chris P), Thursday, 28 September 2006 21:31 (seventeen years ago) link

The Bite Pyle

Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:08 (seventeen years ago) link

whoops, mean to post that acronym in another thread.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 28 September 2006 22:27 (seventeen years ago) link

Those who realize at the age 12 that superheroes are fascist nutjobs must be pretty mature, because at that age I was just, I dunno, cheering for Wolverine or something.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Friday, 29 September 2006 08:20 (seventeen years ago) link

I think I thought Judge Dredd was a goodie at 12.

chap who would dare to contain two ingredients. Tea and bags. (chap), Friday, 29 September 2006 10:43 (seventeen years ago) link

QFT is pronounced "quiffed".

Young Fresh Danny D (Dan Perry), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:59 (seventeen years ago) link

It is worth remembering that almost everything Blount says on ILC is for the express intent of annoying Tuomas.

18. Scrooge McDuck (Uncle Scrooge)

(134 points)

ihttp://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/archives/mcduck.gif

There was a sober, stoic quality to Carl Barks'
stories and artwork that reached its ultimate
expression in the brisk, no-nonsense character of
Scrooge. Initially a cartoonish miser in the mold of
his Dickens namesake, Scrooge eventually evolved into
a remarkably original character – a modern version of
that classic American archetype, the self-made man. He
made his fortune, he says, by "being tougher than the
toughies, and smarter than the smarties – and I made
it SQUARE!"
(Justyn)

His Scrooge can be greedy as hell, but ultimately Scrooge always chooses his fellow beings before money - witness the tear-jerking story where he's willing to give up everything he owns to save his beloved sled dog from drowning. (Tuomas)

Best moment: Rolling around in his money bin. (d a simpson)

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:22 (seventeen years ago) link

Grr.

http://www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com/archives/mcduck.gif

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:22 (seventeen years ago) link


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