Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

"here's a ball. maybe you'd like to bounce it"

lol

Edge's comeback was, "Yeah, I got the idea from some guy named Jake Holmes. Ever hear of him, Jimmy?"

I wonder how many completed "new" songs there are besides "Swan Song". That and alternate mixes/different takes of things from Physical Graffiti are all I know. Honestly, if they just released an appropriate era live show with each album I'd be stoked.

Physical Graffiti pretty much *was* them clearing the decks aiui. If they'd just recorded a normal single album in 1975 we'd be in for a treat now.

I don't understand why there aren't tons of mint gigs ready for a polish and release though. Like a post facto Bootleg Series. If I was in a band that rich and good - or even just a band - I'd be archiving everything.

I think there are lots of shows, but it's a matter of finding the good ones, and how/if they should be edited. Some of the songs on HTWWW are composites (e.g., "Stairway" is parts of both LA shows, and the mellotron is from a '73 show), so I can imagine it being an arduous undertaking if they wanted to release more shows in the same way.

If they put out the pre-75 from Physical Graffiti and Coda today? Mind blowing.

I bet they have decent live shows from say, 70-71 onward. But Page is a perfectionist, and we all know Jimmy was far from perfect live. Far, far from perfect most nights, especially as the drug use took over like on the 1977 tour. Though the setlist on that tour was mind boggling.

Edge's comeback was, "Yeah, I got the idea from some guy named Jake Holmes. Ever hear of him, Jimmy?"

― and I scream Fieri Eiffel Tower High (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, December 4, 2012 12:45 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and then page was all "jake holmes, was he the guitarist on the song "public image" by public image limited?...oh sorry no that was keith levene"

Like a post facto Bootleg Series

Oh ffs, like there's any other kind. A world where the gigs get leaked in advance, like Tony Blair's speeches. Never use Latin.

Well played.

xp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDoqk1Ltr8w

^^^one of my fave zep recordings, and, as far as i know, an unreleased outtake. THERE MIGHT BE MORE OUT THERE.

xpost The thing with Page – and to be fair, I base this only on one 45-minute interview with him – is that he only wants to talk about music, and if you want to talk about music he is happy and engaged. He'll talk about mic positioning on Sun recordings and how he tried to replicate that for as long as you'll let him. And he is passionate about it. But the minute you try to talk about the other parts of Zeppelin – basically anything that isn't the music - he shuts down immediately. Brad Tolinski's book of interviews is well worth getting for anyone who wants to read Page talking about making music.

But the minute you try to talk about the other parts of Zeppelin – basically anything that isn't the music - he shuts down immediately.

Doesn't wanna incriminate himself, innit.

Never mind studio trickery, I want to know about his grooming secrets. To hear Des Barres tell it, he was the Brian Wilson of rock hair.

Eh, he'll have to compete with Bryan Ferry, who actually credits his hair stylist on each album.

Ha that's right, but then it's Ferry's stylist he'd be competing with.

Edge's comeback was, "Yeah, I got the idea from some guy named Jake Holmes. Ever hear of him, Jimmy?"

― and I scream Fieri Eiffel Tower High (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Tuesday, December 4, 2012 12:45 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and then page was all "jake holmes, was he the guitarist on the song "public image" by public image limited?...oh sorry no that was keith levene"

― U.S. State Department, Office of Rare Psych (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, December 4, 2012 2:03 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So bummed Jake didn't prevail in his "Dazed and Confused" plagiarism lawsuit earlier this year. The evidence that Page nicked it is overwhelming. Holmes played "Dazed" when he opened for the Page-era Yardbirds in 1967, after which it became a Yardbirds concert staple. Their live recording made in '67-'68, Cumular Limit, credits Holmes as the sole songwriter.

god who cares, by the time Zep got through Dazed & Confused it was basically just a jumping off point for 30-minute improvs

but then I am not big on authorial claims in general

AP Carter stole all his songs too etc

i was just reading a book on the history of blues, and obviously one of zep's big ripoffs was "you shook me" by willie dixon...but as it turns out...guess who was sort of renowned for taking songs that had been floating around in the blues scene for a long time, writing them down and copywriting them as his own?....mr. willie dixon!

that scamp

It's different when you're talking ancient blues and folk songs that have been handed down for centuries, and some enterprising bluesman from 1920 recorded and popularized it and applied for copyright. But "Dazed" was an all-new song and the Zep version, including the 30-minute improvs, are built on the same original bassline (the song's most distinctive attribute), rhythm, lyrical themes, and title.

How did he lose the plagiarism suit then?

pretty sure Jake Holmes did not invent the phrase "Dazed and Confused" nor it's lyrical themes fwiw. rhythms are not copyrightable. descending bassline = eh isn't this how Page won the lawsuit, by changing enough of it and the melody?

but in general my opinion is no it is EXACTLY the same as "ancient folk and blues songs handed down for centuries" - it is the exact same process. this is what musicians do, it is what they have always done, obsessing over who originated what strikes me as fundamentally misunderstanding how music works. imho.

what portion of zep's profit on the recording would have gone to holmes had he been given a songwriting credit?

you take something you love and change it a little, that's the basic creative process behind all music. this is how things evolve, it's how you get new musical forms/songs/whatever.

xp

I'd never heard it before that I can recall. It's obvious to us that Page was ripping from it, but it's not exactly the same or even clearly the same song, and I doubt it's like Holmes was at all prejudiced by it.

And I say that on the basis of zero knowledge of the guy or his life.

is there any way we could work the Beatles vs Stones, Pitchfork, and the ethics of filesharing into this discussion?

xp I've met him IRL. His daughter lives next door to one of my friends.

Guitar music's dead anyway, so why not?

not that it matters, but Holmes is successful in his own right, independent of Page's "ripoff"

He is. I certainly can't think of anyone else who influenced acts as diverse as Led Zeppelin, Frank Sinatra, Neil Young, Lena Horne, Harry Belefonte, and Cake.

If nothing else, he must have made a mint from royalties from writing the US Army "Be All You Can Be" jingle which has been used since the late '70s to this day. The Dr Pepper "Be a Pepper" jingle is a Randy Newman/Jake Holmes joint effort; that would have been an interesting collaboration on real songs.

god who cares, by the time Zep got through Dazed & Confused it was basically just a jumping off point for 30-minute improvs

― Force Boxman (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, December 5, 2012 1:24 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The guy who he ripped it off from cares, Im sure.

not that it matters, but Holmes is successful in his own right, independent of Page's "ripoff"

― Force Boxman (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, December 5, 2012 1:51 PM (47 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Youre right, this is totally fucking irrelevant. These guys are a total fraud.

one more piece of the puzzle

is there any way we could work the Beatles vs Stones, Pitchfork, and the ethics of filesharing into this discussion?

How did he lose the plagiarism suit then?

― Ismael Klata, Wednesday, December 5, 2012 1:40 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Cuz he was going up against a guy from FUCKING LED ZEPPELIN, who could probably afford seriously fierce lawyers. Holmes was probably represented by a legal team of significantly less quality

I thought this was settled out-of-court, no?

I'm sure the "waited for 40 years to sue" thing figured into it

The case was dismissed with prejudice (meaning it can not be retried). Sometimes it means the parties reached a settlement out of court, not sure what happened here.

Waiting 40+ years to sue was not an issue, although it did prevent Holmes from collecting royalties from previous airplay. He became aware of the Zep version at least since 1969, two years after his own original record was issued. He didn't consider it a big deal at the time. Keep in mind back then it was an album track from the first and only album from a new, little-known band that had never had a hit, not the uber-classic it is today from one of the biggest rock bands ever.

> waiting 40+ years to sue was not an issue, although it did prevent Holmes from collecting royalties from previous airplay

sales too, not just airplay.

Thx for recommending the Page intvws book, ithappens! Amazon just got my $.

There is a rehearsal labeled "Jennings farm blues" which as I recall is a good quality electric version of "bron-yr-aur stomp"

Jake Holmes also came up with the "Gillette! The best! A man! Can Get!" jingle.

also encouraged us to see the softer side of Sears...

xp his first attempt was "Been shaved and confused for so long . . ." but, well.

then he had "Gillette! Jimmy Page is such a get"

If you've never heard it, here's a live early-1968 live recording of the Yardbirds playing "Dazed and Confused", still with the original Jake Holmes lyrics intact. Oddly enough, Zep's ASCAP submission for "Dazed" credits both Plant and Page as writers, but Plant was scrubbed from the credits (as he was for the entire first album) apparently because he was still under a songwriting contract for another label. I suspect the revamped lyrics are largely Percy's work, which would mean only the instrumental middle section was actually written by Jimmy Page. And that part was lifted from yet another Yardbirds tune, "Think About It", which had the identical guitar solo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58mQvW0ROag

So you're saying Zeppelin pioneered ... sampling! How ironic.