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i thought he was great in Lost Highway...

*raspberry*

you know, I never heard pullman but I really liked that Directions In Music thing with doug scharin. haha, wasn't chris brokaw also in that band? drums or guitar?

and Ned, why don't you go flounce off?

― gygax!, Friday, 17 January 2003 20:00 (10 years ago) Permalink

i think millions... is a great album. it's overflowing with new ideas and new collisions and really seems to be the product of a bunch of good rock'n'roll musicians all of a sudden falling in love with the possibilities of dub, jazz, and electronic manipulation.

everything afterwards, while still often enjoyable, just seems like smooth-jazz noodling in comparison.

― arjun (arjun), Friday, 17 January 2003 20:07 (10 years ago) Permalink

haha, wasn't chris brokaw also in that band?

No, but Ken "Don't Call Me Bundy" Brown was.

― hstencil, Friday, 17 January 2003 20:10 (10 years ago) Permalink

i saw them at that thrill jockey party at hackney ocean in september. i thought they were the most boring, audience-hating bunch of retards. it was such a predicable, routine performance.

and the audience wasn't much better. standing their stroking their chins and furrowing their brows. i was trying to fucking dance, dammit!

― fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Friday, 17 January 2003 20:53 (10 years ago) Permalink

i can't say i really like, nor listen, to tortoise much any more (just put on the Gamera single - not too bad), but they were a major stepping stone in my musical knowledge back in the day.

near the end of college, listening to lots of "college rock" (pavement et al.), i discovered tortoise, and it really blew the door open for discovering non-rock bands that are amazing and influential. while not necesarilly introducing me to lots of styles, they made me really interested in new territories -- dub, kraut rock, prog, electronic, minimalist composers like steve reich and terry riley, ennio morricone, glitch [through label mates oval], more out forms of jazz.

i think after a while the whole post rock scene became very same-y, especially from the second generation of post-rock bands, who's influences were tortoise, rather than all of the aforementioned styles tortoise borrowed from.

i once met the band, while they were Tom Ze's back up band, and they were complete assholes

and Standards was a big steaming pile of dog doo

― JasonD (JasonD), Friday, 17 January 2003 20:57 (10 years ago) Permalink

oh, and after really getting into the styles of music which Tortoise built their sound around, i realized it's been done way better 30 years earlier

― JasonD (JasonD), Friday, 17 January 2003 21:10 (10 years ago) Permalink

i saw them at that thrill jockey party at hackney ocean in september. i thought they were the most boring, audience-hating bunch of retards. it was such a predicable, routine performance.
and the audience wasn't much better. standing their stroking their chins and furrowing their brows. i was trying to fucking dance, dammit!

I saw them at the NYC show, and it was no good either. I've seen them a bunch live, tho, and that was the first time they were truly sucky. And I've danced during those other shows, too (and unlike Out Hud, they did not command me to!).

i once met the band, while they were Tom Ze's back up band, and they were complete assholes

hehehehe, well I can see that. Was that when Ze played Park West? I was at that show. Anyway, McEntire's kinda shy, which makes him seem aloof (I don't think he played with Ze). Herndon is kinda bratty sometimes. But Doug, Bitney and Jeff are some of the nicest guys I've known, ever. ESP. Doug. That man is totally a saint. Unpretentious, down-to-earth, willing and able to chat about anything/everything in a really cool way. If most "hatas" got to meet Doug and just talk with him for five mintues, their icy hearts would melt. Or not. I say that tho 'cause a lot of the hating has little to do with the music, and much to do with a (mis)perception of their personalities.

and Standards was a big steaming pile of dog doo

No disagreement here, bro-dy. Don't know why I own this.

― hstencil, Friday, 17 January 2003 21:41 (10 years ago) Permalink

Really liked the first LP and the "Gamera" 12" and the "Why We Fight" 7". And the first remix LP. Everything else I have forgotten about.

― mosurock (mosurock), Saturday, 18 January 2003 00:07 (10 years ago) Permalink

Hstencil you have back-up: I think Donut Bitch, during his whirlwind tour of the U.S., accidentally wound up chatting with some very nice guys by the Empty Bottle (one of whom turned out to be Doug).

― nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 18 January 2003 00:21 (10 years ago) Permalink

Dud. At a certain moment when post-hardcore / stagnating "indie rock" was tapped out, Tortoise came along and made every bad choice in moving beyond their roots. The choice to go instrumental; the academic "appreciation" for and "tasteful" emulation of a swath of very safely canonical-type avant-garde/underground/jazzish/dubby musics, each becoming drained of its life-blood when brought into the Tortoise mix; the pretentious "professionalism" of the band (whose members each seemed to want to be known as instrumental "players" in their own right); the deliberate "professionalism" of the production (from within the band itself); the feigned "unprofessionalism" of the TNT cover art; the messing with Stereolab (see above); the patent lack of fun in both their recordings and their live shows; the god-awful live cover version of the Art Ensemble of Chicago;---ACK ACK ACK! Yeah, they really bug the hell out of me. I sense that their intentions are generally good and yet the result is so bad--maybe that's what really bothers me. I mean it seems like they genuinely care about the music they like and which influences them, they have laudable DIY tendencies in wanting to also be repsonsible for the production side (thinking of McEntire here), they have some kind of ambition to push themselves into new directions--and yet, and yet all these bad things people say about them seem true, and I don't enjoy them a whit. So right but SOOOO wrong.

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Saturday, 18 January 2003 03:55 (10 years ago) Permalink

and Ned, why don't you go flounce off?

Shan't.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 18 January 2003 04:06 (10 years ago) Permalink

the god-awful live cover version of the Art Ensemble of Chicago

Oh jeez ... what AECO tune did they butcher?

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 18 January 2003 07:42 (10 years ago) Permalink

Oh jeez ... what AECO tune did they butcher?

"Theme de Yo Yo", sans vocals, natch. It was ARGGGH-ifying.

― arch Ibog (arch Ibog), Saturday, 18 January 2003 15:58 (10 years ago) Permalink

"Theme de Yo Yo", sans vocals, natch

Natch.

― Mr. Diamond (diamond), Saturday, 18 January 2003 19:39 (10 years ago) Permalink

That soundtracky sounding song on Millions... has got a pretty nice ambience to it, but the rest... eh.. pretty boring.

― Ian Johnson, Sunday, 19 January 2003 22:53 (10 years ago) Permalink

7 months pass...

I'm not that familiar with their other albums, but I listened to TNT again the other night and had forgotten just how pretty it is.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 15:31 (9 years ago) Permalink

I agree with the folks who sight their singles and remixes -- and yes, i too frequent albums from Keith Jarret (not boring, but rather, emotionally paced). Nobody has yet mentioned the In The Fishtank E.P. completed with the Ex -- see "Pleasure As Usual" for an engagingly vocal amalgam of the two.

― christoff (christoff), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 16:15 (9 years ago) Permalink

They're one of the most organic bands I can think of right now, in terms of sound-textures and composition. Like, I've yet to hear them play something that sounds out of place within the context of each piece. They're all very good at playing into each other (as opposed to playing off of each other). I also have never been too keen on Standards, but otherwise they're the fuckin' poo diggitty as far as I'm concerned. They're wonderful morning-sex music.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 16:42 (9 years ago) Permalink

Standards is my favourite that I own to be honest.

― dog latin (dog latin), Wednesday, 17 September 2003 21:36 (9 years ago) Permalink

i'm listening to the 6th song on the directions in music album... wow.

anyone listened to this lately? i think it's aged much better than the tortoise stuff.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 18 September 2003 06:30 (9 years ago) Permalink

mixwise, this song is the perfect bridge between tortoise's "his second storey island" and "gamera"/"goriri" (i'm pretty sure both bundy brown-era tortoise material)...

the drone dissolving into the concrete then the emergence of the acoustic passages and finally the abstract jungle beats into reverse synth bleeding.

― gygax! (gygax!), Thursday, 18 September 2003 06:38 (9 years ago) Permalink

my woman used to love that Directions in Music album, but i sold it......sux to be her

― JasonD (JasonD), Thursday, 18 September 2003 06:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

The four minutes or so of Djed leading up to the tape fuck-up, or whatever one chooses to call it, are utterly classic IMO. Too bad it wasn't a standalone song.

― Damian (Damian), Thursday, 18 September 2003 11:01 (9 years ago) Permalink

These days, I'm constantly taken aback by how many new jazz albs these days borrow bits and pieces of the Tortoise 'sound' (Jaga Jazzist are the most obv example)

― Andrew L (Andrew L), Thursday, 18 September 2003 17:42 (9 years ago) Permalink

If Tortoise were actually a jazz band, I think they might be the Brian Blade Fellowship (or maybe it's just the Jeff Parker crossover talking).

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 18 September 2003 18:06 (9 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...

TNT is indeed very pretty - I am listening to it right now and it is stunning.

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 2 January 2004 19:34 (9 years ago) Permalink

They do I cover of Robert Ashley's In Sara mumble mumble mumble? That's a little intriguing..

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 2 January 2004 19:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

yeah i wondered was that a cover or "inspired by" or what - in fact it was someone mentioning sara mumble mumble in another thread today that made me dig this out again.

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 2 January 2004 19:39 (9 years ago) Permalink

I haven't heard it, but saw that they did it and the title had to be more than a coincidence. (I describe it the way I do partly because I can't remember the exact wording of the title, but Ashely does do I lot of mumbling. I like his speaking style though, overall. I once overheard him talking at a music festival event: "That is [pause] sublime." The way he said it was wonderful)

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 2 January 2004 19:44 (9 years ago) Permalink

Aha - i have never heard it and now i want to. The tortoise versione is called "In Sara, Mencken, Christ and Beethoven there were Women and Men" as opposed to "...there were Men and Women" in the Ashley version.

― jed (jed_e_3), Friday, 2 January 2004 19:49 (9 years ago) Permalink

It's not really great or anything, but worth hearing. My favorite Ashley doesn't seem to be available on CD. It's Perfect Live/Private Parts: The Bar.

― Rockist Scientist, Friday, 2 January 2004 20:03 (9 years ago) Permalink

the Ashley piece is a setting of the poem by John Barton Wolgamot. the Tortoise piece could be a direct reference to the poem, who knows.

Rockist: 'The Bar' is available on the three disc version of Perfect Lives, but it's a slightly different recording. That is an exceptional piece. He should get a whole thread, I'm an Ashley fanatic.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 00:14 (9 years ago) Permalink

I want the original recording though. I think I heard the new one and didn't like it. (I'm very reactionary about recordings of old experimental favorites.) At least I still have my vinyl copy in storage.

I didn't know the Ashley piece was based on someone else's poem.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 3 January 2004 01:26 (9 years ago) Permalink

you're right, the original 'The Bar' is better. it's a fantastic record. don't know what's holding up the CD reissue, it'd fit on one disc with ashley's 'music word fire' disco 12" (which many people hate, but I don't).

and the only thing the tortoise piece has in common with the ashley piece is the namedrop. still no need to listen to tortoise.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 01:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

Is that "Music Word Fire" the one that goes something like I coo coo you coo coo, etc. I don't think I liked it at first, but I think I got to like it.

But I bought some later Ashley that didn't hook me in, so I've kind of backed off from his work. (I can't think of the title right now, but it was a large-scale opera type thing.) Also, "The Bar" is really my favorite part of that Perfect Lives work.

I guess one of us should start an Ashley thread. You know more than I do, but if you start one some time, I'll chime in, maybe think of something new to say (maybe not).

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Saturday, 3 January 2004 01:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

next time I gain the courage to start another thread that'll sink to the bottom three posts later, it'll be an Ashley thread. but I'm unreliable, I've crossed the threshhold and I can even appreciate most of the operas. But 'Automatic Writing', 'The Wolfman', and the hidden secret 'Yellow Man With Heart With Wings'.

didn't mean to be anti-Tortoise above, they certainly were better than many things in the 90's.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 02:16 (9 years ago) Permalink

ubuweb has a PDF of Wolgamot's poem online here, along with the liner notes. I have the Cramps edition, had never read the story behind the poem; wow.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 02:55 (9 years ago) Permalink

I read that with amazement, but by the end I was wondering if this whole story is a prank. You're sure it's legit?

― Rockist Scientist, Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:37 (9 years ago) Permalink

who knows, stranger things. in the end there's only the poem itself really.

frustrating to realize only the rough tape survived. think of what they could have done with a more detailed mixdown.

― (Jon L), Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:40 (9 years ago) Permalink

UBUWeb is incredible - i could spend 2 lifetimes looking through it. My frind has a long prose-poem on it here if you are interested.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:41 (9 years ago) Permalink

i think its really good and ill look forward to reading that Wolgamot Poem, thanks.

― jed (jed_e_3), Saturday, 3 January 2004 03:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

4 months pass...

I finally listened to "Djed" and it's not awful. I think I would have liked it more if I heard it back in the 80's than I do now (not that it was there to be heard then). The minimalist/Krautrock/prog. blend is less appealing to me now than it was then. I like something a little more rhythmically articulated. (I don't know if that's really the right word, but I like how it sounds.) But, this is okay. I could see myself possibly getting to like it more.

I don't see what the big deal with the "tape crash" thing is.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 31 May 2004 01:42 (8 years ago) Permalink

I like the marimba (or whatever it is).

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 31 May 2004 01:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

I'm not sure I need to buy it though.

― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Monday, 31 May 2004 01:54 (8 years ago) Permalink

I got It's All Around You the other day. Meh. Works if I'm in the right mood.

― Pack Yr Romantic Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Monday, 31 May 2004 02:01 (8 years ago) Permalink

I still like it.

― Jordan (Jordan), Monday, 31 May 2004 03:28 (8 years ago) Permalink

Surprisingly, Tortoise put on one of the funnest shows I've ever attended.

― Mike Stuchbery, Monday, 31 May 2004 11:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

2 weeks pass...

I listened to Millions Now Living again last night. Some of it is too fusion-y for me. One track was surprisingly similar to Ralph Lundsten (not a name I see mentioned too much), with some space rock mixed in.

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 16 June 2004 13:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

I heard that "Salt the Skies" track from the new album and really liked it, so I guess I'll have to buy it now.

― hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 13:43 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Salt the Skies" may be the best track on It's All Around You. I definitely thought so the first few times I heard the album -- but now I'm not so sure, since others have grown on me. It's a pleasant album, but I can't get excited about it the way I got excited about Millions and TNT.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 16 June 2004 14:08 (8 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 110 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

yeah it was definitely a collaboration to the fullest...could have easily been billed as Mpls Jazz All Stars feat Tortoise

two drummers - dan bitney & jt bates

stage right was the jazz all star stage left was tortoise - mccoombs/parker on bass/guitar, herdon & mcentire on various keyboards/electronics/laptops

i didn't really recognize proper tortoise songs per se, they seemed to work off a main riff or theme and kind of all go off from there....i think i recognized some riffs from tortoise songs here and there (LOL i also realize how much i don't know ANY tortoise song titles except for djed)....then they did a encore of "galapagos" which mccoombs said that the jazz guys didn't know and they hadn't practiced but it went off well..

mike & greg lewis were both great....never seen ewart and goddam he was the fucking BOMB, also dressed so fucking "jazz guy" - flowing african v-neck style kinda tie-dyed looking shirt, beret, and neat beard, so cool....but yeah he's a great player

surprise was michele kinney who i wasn't familiar with but she was great...

jordan - does your ILM mail work? I have a link that, shall we say, might be of interest :)

― l0u1s j0rdan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 7 May 2012 15:52 (1 year ago) Permalink

it does!

― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Monday, 7 May 2012 15:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

cool, sent! let me know what you think, but it's sounding just a good in the harsh light of monday morning

― l0u1s j0rdan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 7 May 2012 15:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

thanks man! can't download at work but i'll check it out tonight, looking forward to it.

― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Monday, 7 May 2012 15:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

wow could I also have that link?

― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 7 May 2012 15:59 (1 year ago) Permalink

One of my issues with Tortoise has been that for all their individual talents, they don't really improvise live. So it's exciting to hear they're at least trying to push themselves a little, belatedly.

― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 7 May 2012 16:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah i really enjoyed seeing them last week but it seemed, i don't know, a little rote. they covered all the parts but i was hoping that they'd let jeff parker off the leash a little or get into more double-drummer fire.

― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Monday, 7 May 2012 16:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

just about ten minutes in, but yeah sounding great! thanks m@tt

― tylerw, Monday, 7 May 2012 16:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

hurting - check you ILX mail :)

josh you want the link?

― l0u1s j0rdan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 7 May 2012 17:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

i'd be happy to take a link!

― sonderangerbot, Monday, 7 May 2012 17:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

some photos here

http://www.reviler.org/2012/05/07/photos-tortoise-minneapolis-jazz-all-stars-at-walker-art-center/

― l0u1s j0rdan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 8 May 2012 19:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

nice. looks like herndon on drums btw.

― 40oz of tears (Jordan), Tuesday, 8 May 2012 19:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

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