~~~~~nutrition nazis 2012~~~~~

The New York times did a nice takedown of the Meditterranean diet last year Does the Mediterranean Diet Even Exist?. The healthy communities were the impoverished ones, that could only afford to eat lentils, fruits, and vegggies, so they got healthy. It's not the olive oil:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfBKauKVi4M

I want to eat sardines but I'm still kind of afraid? I bought a nice tin of King Oscar. I just, I'm afraid I'll hate them? Or that the heads will skeev me out and I'll throw up, lol.

there are no heads

no way

really?

okay well that's a start

are they a weird thing for you? i used to have them as a kid on sunday evenings, sardines on toast.

do any of you guys buy them fresh much? i

I've never eaten them before, ever

vg: try the avacodo + sardine thing upthread. i mean it's still going to taste fishy, but the creaminess of the avacado + the vinegar takes the edge off it a lot.

i get them fresh literally every time i see them on the menu at a restaurant, but i don't have them fresh at home

i have bought them fresh quite a bit, really nice and you can do a bit more with them, they're great with chilli and lemon.

in anything, on anything, around anything. have lived a sardine free life.

but I'm down with fish in general, and fishyness so there's no real reason why I shouldn't try them. I just need a way to eat them.

xpost yeah I think the avocado method sounds like the best delivery vehicle for me

how do you all fit seeds into things? just putting through quinoa or brown rice dishes sounds a good way, or maybe in morning porridge?

any other tips or suggested seeds beyond the obvious?

Ground flax seeds and chia seeds mixed in smoothies. Sunflower seeds or pumpkin seeds on salad. Sorry, nothing too exciting here.

You can get boneless and skinless sardines

1) Flax (despite being cheaper) is better than chia.
2) Both pretty much pass right through unless ground. But whole seeds have a much higher shelf-life.
3) As mentioned by cwkiii, ground flax & chia are great for thickening up smoothies. You can use 1 tbsp flax + 3 tbsp water (in blender) as an egg replacer in all sorts of recipes. Flax also works in salad dressings:

This is my salad dressing de jure, from Susan V.'s excellent recipe blog

Low-Fat Tahini-Chickpea Dressing
1 tablespoon flax or chia
Grind to a powder in blender, dry, then add
1/4 cup chickpeas, 1/4 cup lemon juice, 1/2 cup water, 1 tbsp tahini, 1/2 tbsp tamari or soy sauce, 1 tbsp nutritional yeast, 2 cloves garlic, 2 tsp minced ginger
Puree. Black pepper to taste

what about say, hemp? do they need grinding? i've also been putting sunflower seeds into things.

Next to nothing is known about hempseed:

I was surprised to find so few articles published in the human medical literature on hempseeds, but maybe I shouldn’t be given the lack of much of an industry lobby and the stigma attached to the plant. Only 4 popped up in a pubmed search (excluding articles written by a “Dr. Ian D. Hempseed.”). The latest (available full-text) was a double-blind placebo-controlled comparison of fish, flax and hempseed oil supplementation that lasted 3 months and found no significant effects of any of them on lipid profile, LDL oxidation or measures of inflammation. This result is similar to what was found in my video Is Distilled Fish Oil Toxin-Free? Before that a study comparing daily tablespoons of flaxseed to hempseed oil similarly didn’t find much effect. The third was the study you cited, which found that 2 daily tablespoons of hempseed oil improved atopic dermatitis (an itchy skin rash) better than the same amount of olive oil. The researchers suggest it may be because of the gamma linoleic acid content of hempseeds, an omega 6 fatty acid that paradoxically appears to have an overall anti-inflammatory effect. Instead of downing the oil, as always I’d suggest eating the whole food–hempseeds–directly (same with flaxseeds, see my video Just the Flax Ma’am). And the final study, “Anaphylaxis to ingestion of hempseed” soundly debunks the wikipedia claim that “In fact, there are no known allergies to hemp foods.”

right. i've never bought them but kept reading (obviously bullshit) articles claiming them to be healthy.

BTW, that's from a reader Q&A page at Dr. Greger's site. He has 28 HSUSA interns to ferret out info, I'm sadly solo.

I bought some hempseed oil because I found flax oil pretty intolerable in salad dressings. Its better, a bit more nut like (rather than unripe/green) tasting.

Flax definitely has the better essential fatty acid profile assuming you're eating other fats in your diet (58%:14% ω−3:ω−6, vs 16%:57% in hemp). The western diet is overwhelmingly heavy in the ω−6 linoleic (LA), which is metabolized to pro-inflamatory eicosanoids like the prostaglandins. The main ω−3 fatty acid in plants, α-Linolenic acid (ALA), competes for the same enzymatic pathways to produce less effective or ineffective eicosanoid hormones, and so seems to reduce inflamation (and hence cancer, vascular disease, arthritis etc). A 1:3 ratio like in hemp is considered ideal, but since you're probably getting so much ω−6 fat from other sources (pretty much every other vegetable oil except canola, which is 1:2), the flax presumably would help to redress the imbalance.

I will note, that even though flax oil is a bit of an acquired taste that I didn't acquire, its the absolute best oil for seasoning your cast iron skillet.

This is probably the wrong thread, and please redirect me if there's a better one, but... I have a friend with breast cancer that is also in her lymphatic system. She's Taiwanese, and her European husband studies Chinese medicine. She says she's not going through surgery and chemo, but going to rely on acupuncture, exercise, diet and meditation. She directed me to a youtube that promotes a vegan diet called the R@ve Diet and attacks chemo and surgery as an 'industry'.

She's had a difficult life and she seems to feel that she's 'gone wrong' by not looking after herself properly, and that when she starts to do that, she will have a good chance of getting better. I am so worried for her, and she has a toddler son. I don't want to attack her decision directly and it would do no good to do so. She will look at research, however. Sanpaku, does anything spring to mind?

This youtube claims breast cancer prognoses haven't improved since the 30s. Doctors and doctors-in-training: that's not right, is it? Even cursory Googling suggests that it isn't.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2011/10/24/steve-jobs-cancer-treatment-regrets/

But however well his intuition and “magical thinking” may have worked for him at work, Jobs’ postponement of surgery in favor of alternative means was a bizarre executive decision. “We talked about this a lot.” says the biographer. “He wanted to talk about it, how he regretted it. … I think he felt he should have been operated on sooner.”

By the time Jobs finally opted for surgery, the cancer had spread. He had an under-the-radar liver transplant and began putting a lot of energy into researching the most sophisticated experimental methods, making a complete about-face from how he began his treatment years before.

my cliched view on non-western medicine is that it's a good bet for preventive healthcare, but once you are actually diagnosed with a serious disease you should turn to conventional treatment.

but yeah, the jobs article might be a good thing to show her. i don't know if you can go about this without offending her... that might be unavoidable... but you should make sure she hears what you think she needs to hear.

The trouble with Jobs is that if you've decided your cancer was largely caused by stress, you'll see Jobs as someone who didn't knock his stress on the head and therefore wasn't doing the alternative treatments right.

ljub, my mother in law was diagnosed with stage 3 pancreatic cancer last april. she did not want chemo and doctors felt that it was not as effective on that type of cancer, and risky since she is an advanced age. she opted to undertake the Ger$on therapy, which is basically juicing, coffee enemas, and some approved foods.

I thought it was the biggest load of horseshit I'd ever heard of, and I spent a few months actively fearing her imminent death. I felt like it was a really bad idea, that this stuff was quackery and she was risking her health.

She has not done anything aside from the therapy, no exercise or meditation or anything at all, she's only half-done the therapy and isn't even doing the enemas as often as she 'should'. (I can't blame her). But somehow, for whatever reason, her cancer has not grown. She has not gotten sicker. She has no pain. She is in good health. And her doctor says at each 3 monthly checkup, keep doing whatever it is you're doing because it's working.

the lesson for me wasn't that quackery isn't quackery. The lesson is that what your friend wants is in a lot of ways much more important than what you want FOR them. Whatever they choose, whatever treatment they want for themselves, that is the path you go down with them. Because their mindset is a big part of this.

I'm no more of an advocate for this quacked-out therapy than I was when I found out my MIL had cancer. It is working for HER, and that is the only truth I can really embrace. And while she's around for me to be with and enjoy and in no pain, I have no reason to tell her otherwise. I don't think I would choose that option myself. But I also know that chemo is painful and debilitating and even before any of that, it's fucking scary. What we want for our loved ones isn't always going to give you the best VERSION of them. I think there's some weight to thinking about which version of your friend you want.

But also just generally, be careful with how you counsel your friend, because ultimately this is a really personal choice and one that requires support from friends like you, no matter what she chooses.

I'm no doctor. I'm contemplating that path but can't claim a comprehensive background or credentials in adjunct therapies. Its just become a hobby - some people watch TV, I google for phytochemicals that activate Keap1/Nrf2 pathways.

Once cancer has metastasized, there are some very prominent medical professionals that believe chemo rounds are unjustified cruelty - a lot of suffering for little likelihood of remission. So I respect ljubljana's friend's decision.

I will say that some dietary interventions seem to make a world of difference in cancer progression. Of primary importance is getting insulin like growth factor (IGF-I) as low as possible:
this generally means a low protein, animal-product free diet. Dietary methionine restriction has been used as an adjunct to cancer therapy. A vegan diet, especially one moderate in soy, achieves this pretty easily.

A number of phytochemicals suppress the processes of inflammation central to cancer metastasis. The anthocyanins in berries appear particularly potent here.

The diet for longevity with cancer appears to be the same for cancer prevention: a whole foods plant based diet, with starch as the major calorie source, emphasizing plants with known antiproliferative effects: cruciferous vegetables, alium vegetables, many fruits but especially berries. Dark chocolate is cool. The beverage of choice is green tea.

For hope, I'd point her to the story of Ruth Heidrich, who had a similar diagnosis of infiltrating ductal carcinoma at age 47, and still competing in marathons and Ironman triathalons 31 years later.

For easy knowledge, I'd point her to the hundreds of videos on cancer and on dietary interventions at NutritionFacts.

There's this guy Mark McCarty who is a bit like me, but he's been scouring the research literature broadly for 30 years and is now affiliated with a Tijuana cancer treatment center (yes, I know how that sounds). I think his book on integrative cancer treatment, especially the sections on nutraceuticals, is worth the read.

I have been collecting a bunch of research papers for my own reading for a while. I would recommend the sections on breast cancer, IGF-I and cancer, methionine restriction, and maybe the diabetic drug Metformin for starters. Drill down in plant studies and there's a metric shit ton of articles on antiproliferative effects of particular veggies.

Seriously, Ruth Heidrich is some kind of hero, got a PhD in nutrition after her diagnosis, and her daily diet is austere, spartan, but every element makes sense.

There are evidence-based alternative cancer therapies, and then there's Ger$on. Can't say I predisposed to embrace a protocol including injections of raw calf liver.

Two videos that may please those in favor of evidence-based integrative medicine, or with an aversion to mother-in-laws.
G Therapy for Cancer
G Therapy vs. Chemotherapy

the raw liver injections aren't used anymore.

and dude: I like you, I like your research, you bring good depth to any discussion...but the mother in law crack was crass & in poor taste. and that's me being polite & restrained.

My apologies. It's late here, the bottle is empty, and MILs are common comedy fodder. It was inconsiderate, and I probably shouldn't attempt comedy in my state.

thank you

There is a very interesting question of how one can bring any levity to discussions of physiology. At root, we learn that we are awesomely complicated machines, which is in itself potentially a rather depressing thought. I wonder if La Mettrie was welcome in the parlors of Paris, Leiden or Berlin. Probably not the conversation for this thread or time.

Sanpaku, thank you very much for gathering all of this together. I really appreciate it a lot, especially that link to the papers. I'll be watching it and learning before deciding how to respond properly to my friend. What I'll be looking out for is what the evidence says about cancers that don't seem to be highly aggressive. I just got a second email from her that says hers is 'slow', and partly benign/calcified, but I don't know to what extent has actually metastasized in the lymphatic system - it's in there, but there is a specific test that seems to be able to tell you something about the chances of the lymph system allowing the establishment of the cancer elsewhere. I don't know what the results of that were.

VG, that's a very interesting and positive story - long may things continue as they are for your MIL! I sent my friend a holding reply that said: this scares me a lot, and yet I see what you are saying and I know there are no guarantees with chemo and surgery, and I will do some research myself. (I am cheating with Sanpaku's help). That's the most honest thing I can say. When I've read more I'll say more about the most positive evidence I can find. If I find things that cause me to ask myself whether this approach really fits her specific situation, maybe I'll say something about that too. It depends how strongly I think it would contribute to the research picture she herself is trying to build.

ljubjana, I'd also like to point you to Mark McCarty's magnum opus so far: Low-Fat, Low-Salt, Whole-Food Vegan: Staying Lean and Healthy into Ripe Old Age, where he puts everything together in 218 pages and 1100 references - one of the best guides to a health promoting lifestyle you'll find anywhere, and its free. The 35 page section on cancer prevention neatly summarizes the IGF-I/cancer story better than I've seen anywhere else.

My other nutritional guru of late is Vincent Giuliano, who may yet convince me to supplement more extensively. Search his Anti-Aging Firewalls blog for "cancer" and you'll find some very up-to date summations of current research on foods and supplements with antiproliferative effects.

Thanks Sanpaku.

ljubljana, I came across the site Food for Breast Cancer a few moments ago and its clearly one of the most extensive, best researched sites on nutrition & cancer.

Also, I wanted to share a couple papers that do an excellent job reviewing mechanisms and foods that can reactivate tumor suppressor genes silenced by epigenetic modifications in cancer. This may be most potent nutritional intervention after cancer is diagnosed, and its an extremely active research field at the moment.

Stefanska, B., et al. Epigenetic mechanisms in anti‐cancer actions of bioactive food components–the implications in cancer prevention. British journal of pharmacology 167.2 (2012): 279-297.

Gerhauser, Clarissa. Cancer chemoprevention and nutri-epigenetics: State of the art and future challenges. Natural Products in Cancer Prevention and Therapy. Springer Berlin Heidelberg, 2013. 73-132.

The latter includes a comprehensive (as of 2012) "shopping list" of sorts for an anti-cancer epigenetics diet.

Thanks, I'll take a look at these and probably send them to my friend, especially that site.. I did some skimming around the papers you very kindly linked to, but not as much as I meant to, and my friend has gone quiet. Might see her in August as she might be in the UK.

It's funny, I was just thinking the other day about epigenetics and diet - I was remembering that a workshop was put on by UK research funders for bio and soc sci researchers. It was an attempt to bring both disciplines to bear on a bunch of broad-brush research questions. I wasn't there, but apparently the consensus was that everyone felt it was way to early to try to apply any kind of interdisciplinary approach to this set of problems. So totally not an area I know anything about, and things might have moved on a lot since then, at least on the bio side.

are ppl still interested in this stuff

cutty's not around much anymore, at least i don't think, but maybe we could still talk about this

i already stopped drinking soda, eating sweets and pastries, etc. so that's been good. but now i should probably do more at some point.

getting off sugar is the most important thing in my experience. i weigh like 25 pounds less than i did in high school and the only real difference is that i don't drink soda.

not sure if i am healthier though, but i think the soda was fucking with my energy levels back then because i feel more "balanced" now. i drink green smoothies too now which make me feel better. i wish i knew enough to have a real nutritional philosophy though, like cutty seemed to have.

i already stopped drinking soda, eating sweets and pastries, etc. so that's been good. but now i should probably do more at some point.

― markers, Monday, October 14, 2013 10:31 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

q is what have you replaced them with?

it's a great first step tho

the sugar is def a huge thing

xpost

i can help., whatcha need markers.