i mean it sucks because a lot of these formats had been fostering new stars and putting interesting songs at #1 lately, but you're never gonna see Miguel top the R&B chart or Eric Church top the country chart again after this
― some dude, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:11 (eleven years ago) link
don't forget Maroon 5
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:12 (eleven years ago) link
interesting stuff. i don't have my head entirely around the numbers & methodologies here, but there's something about a "return to monoculture" either in real terms or as a measurement phenomenon.
― there is no dana, only (goole), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:12 (eleven years ago) link
is the pop domination due to itunes or changing of radio playlists/genre stations changing to top 40 or just one of those things that happens?
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:12 (eleven years ago) link
It's been happening on radio for a while. It's impossible to break the Rihanna-Goyte-Katy-Perry-Maroon-5 stranglehold on Clear Channel Radio. I mean, I hear "One More Night" every 45 minutes.
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:15 (eleven years ago) link
but you're never gonna see Miguel top the R&B chart or Eric Church top the country chart again after this
to be blunt about this, it's because, even though Rihanna makes club trance, she "is R&B" (because, you know), and Taylor Swift makes pop dubstep, she "is country" (again, because, you know). right?
in a way it seems like this is a identity/identification/musicalogical problem. almost.
― there is no dana, only (goole), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:16 (eleven years ago) link
Taylor Swift... makes pop dubstep?
― The Owls of Ja Rule (DJP), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:18 (eleven years ago) link
p much
― there is no dana, only (goole), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:18 (eleven years ago) link
well, it's because when five Rihanna tracks become available her fans will download them at once from iTunes.
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:18 (eleven years ago) link
SWIFTSTEP
― lex pretend, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:19 (eleven years ago) link
What would an ideal modern chart system look like?
― wk, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:19 (eleven years ago) link
I'll assume you don't want to hear her latest track.
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:19 (eleven years ago) link
"Adorn" and "Springsteen" topping every chart.
http://soundcloud.com/taylorswiftofficial/i-knew-you-were-trouble
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, October 11, 2012 2:12 PM Bookmark
Both of those things are happening. Another part of this phenomenon I wanted to get into is how specialized radio stations have been getting pushed off the airwaves. A few years ago another change that happened is how Arbitron, the company that measures radio station ratings (and thus, how much $$$ stations get from advertisers), changed their own system from one in which their sample listeners kept diaries of what they listened to to one in which an electronic device automatically records what radio they listen to. There have been arguments about their sampling methodology underrepresenting minorities and related issues, but the effect of this switch has been black- and latino-focused radio stations plummeting in ratings. A lot have switched formats and this is compounded by the fact that many talk, news, and sports stations have been ditching AM radio for FM, which has traditionally been the domain of music stations due to its higher fidelity. A few years ago, Seattle had three high-powered commercial stations that focused on black music - a rap/r&b station, an "adult rhythmic" station that focused on 80s-2000s dance & r&b hits, and a smooth jazz/adult r&b station. Today only the former is left, and it skews much more towards pop.
― Cap'n Hug-a-Thug (The Reverend), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:25 (eleven years ago) link
lol hell no
― The Owls of Ja Rule (DJP), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:27 (eleven years ago) link
this is a identity/identification/musicalogical problem
it has always been this way. R&B is just shorthand for "black", 'twas ever thus
― stop swearing and start windmilling (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:29 (eleven years ago) link
The adult rhythmic station is now top 40 and the smooth jazz station is now sports, fwiw. KUBE, the r&b/rap station, used to be an unassailable ratings kingpin, but now lags behind both the newly-top 40 Movin 92.5 and the already existing top 40 station Kiss 106, which used to have very mediocre ratings.
― Cap'n Hug-a-Thug (The Reverend), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:30 (eleven years ago) link
xp to Rev: something like this happened in the twin cities too. there was a lone black oriented pop station up and running for quite a few years (B96). interestingly it was a new startup at the time (i need to look up exactly when but it was in the 00s) i could tell that the advertiser base was becoming increasingly reliant on only a few businesses as the years went by. and then one day it was done, changed to a pretty generic 80s-10s pop/rock station, a bit like the JackFM format.
xp idk how common this phenomenon was across black radio nationally but this station had its slice of white club pop: gwen stefani, justin timberlake, lady gaga, and right before the end, kesha.
― there is no dana, only (goole), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:31 (eleven years ago) link
for the last decade or so, there have been 3 contemporary R&B/rap stations in Baltimore and D.C. that all pretty much play the same things from the top of the R&B/Hip Hop Songs chart. in the last year, one of the D.C. stations began dropping Ellie Goulding and Katy Perry and Gotye and Flo Rida into their playlist. and they're the only R&B station i've heard Rihanna's now-#1 R&B hit "Diamonds" on.
― some dude, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:31 (eleven years ago) link
xp to myself: er when i say "lone" that's not quite true, there's been a lower-powered black community radio station, KMOJ, on the air here for years. this was the only black radio station with broadcasting reach over the entire metro.
― there is no dana, only (goole), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:33 (eleven years ago) link
Until now, only country stations contributed to the Hot Country Songs chart, or R&B/hip-hop stations to Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Songs; the same held true for Latin and rock. The new methodology, which will utilize the Hot 100's formula of incorporating airplay from more than 1,200 stations of all genres monitored by BDS, will reward crossover titles receiving airplay on a multitude of formats. With digital download sales and streaming data measuring popularity on the most inclusive scale possible, it is only just the radio portion of Billboard chart calculations that includes airplay from the entire spectrum of monitored formats.
UGH.
― Cap'n Hug-a-Thug (The Reverend), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:33 (eleven years ago) link
I mean not what kind of music would make up the charts, but how would a properly designed modern chart system function?
I'm trying to wrap my head around how all of this works, but the idea that there was this beneficial feedback loop between radio and what the audience was buying is interesting and something I've never really considered. It makes sense that a chart that allows for some input from tastemakers would work better than one that strictly tracks sales. I always thought of that feedback loop in a negative way, as a pointless echo chamber, and a decade ago I would have thought that something like an itunes chart would end up being more diverse and interesting than a radio-driven chart, but obviously that's not the case.
So I'm kind of wondering what other kinds of gatekeeper or tastemaking factors could be input into the equation besides radio? Like in theory it seems like you could develop some kind of interesting combination of online sales and listening metrics (itunes, spotify listens, lastfm) and then add in something like hype machine data for the gatekeeper input. But that wouldn't really work in the same way and wouldn't result in the kind of beneficial feedback loop that existed between radio and retail.
― wk, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:33 (eleven years ago) link
Boston's R&B/hip-hop station has been a ClearChannel property for years and has therefore already been on this bandwagon; the interesting thing happening here is the dismantling of all of the alternative stations
xp: goole I was gonna ask if KMOJ disappeared after this summer!
― The Owls of Ja Rule (DJP), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:34 (eleven years ago) link
i think that the genre charts should have remained dictated by airplay on only stations of particular formats. the Hot 100 and various Digital Sales charts already did a good job of showing what was selling even if it wasn't getting airplay. MAYBE the genre charts could have digital sales factored in, but at a much lower rate than they are now, where it just feels like this trump card that overrides all other factors.
― some dude, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:35 (eleven years ago) link
if you look at Billboard's Radio Songs chart, which is all airplay from all formats, you can see that there's clearly just way more pop stations than anything else right now. the 10th biggest pop song on it often outperforms whatever the biggest song on urban radio is.
DJP: i can't/don't listen to it at all really but it's still around afaik: http://kmojfm.com/
― there is no dana, only (goole), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:38 (eleven years ago) link
I share most of the above concerns about these changes. But is it possible this move could actually prove a good thing by allowing stations to rely less on the charts? Stations still ultimately have agency over what they play, so I don't think urban stations are going to start playing Rihanna just because her songs appear on their charts as a technicality, and if these charts really do become as messy and random as we're predicting here, isn't it possible that could make them such unreliable barometers that stations begin ignoring them?
― Evan R, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:39 (eleven years ago) link
I don't know how you break the interdependence of stations and the charts tbh
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:41 (eleven years ago) link
that's a nice thought, but generally anytime some shit happens that makes me hope "maybe this is the breaking point and from here on out things will get more regionalized and freeform and open-minded!" i'm wrong. (xpost)
― some dude, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:42 (eleven years ago) link
Rev, re limited American radio options, this started back last century, blame Clinton for signing the Gingrich pushed Telecommunications Act of 1996; and radio programmer Lee Abrams homogenized commercial rock radio back in the late 1970s
http://futureofmusic.org/article/research/radio-deregulation-has-it-served-musicians-and-citizens
The radical deregulation of the radio industry allowed by the Telecommunications Act of 1996 has not benefited the public or musicians. Instead, it has led to less competition, fewer viewpoints, and less diversity in programming. Deregulation has damaged radio as a public resource.
― curmudgeon, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:43 (eleven years ago) link
I was hoping no one was going to bring up the Act.
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:43 (eleven years ago) link
to be fair radio HAS learned to ignore songs with iTunes sales bumps for a long time -- if it's a new artist like fun. or PSY then sales helps show the interest, but so far it's rare that some superstar's deep cut that jumps on the Hot 100 purely from sales gets added to playlists (although sometimes sales can help pick singles -- Molanphy had a good column a few months ago how big sales for "Set Fire To The Rain" as an album track contributed to it becoming a single)
― some dude, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:45 (eleven years ago) link
Both KUBE and Kiss 106 in Seattle are Clear Channel. It should be noted that as KUBE is playing an increasing amount of pop (although mostly by black artists - Flo Rida, Rihanna et al), Kiss has eschewed playing rap and r&b at all. The Flo Rida brigade is the only music by black artists they play, and only a few such songs at a time. Their playlist is otherwise white white white white white, which wasn't the case ten years ago, when they were playing 50 Cent just like every other station in America. 92.5 the other, non-Clear Channel top 40 station here, doesn't seem as averse to dropping "Mercy" or whatever from time to time tho.
― Cap'n Hug-a-Thug (The Reverend), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:45 (eleven years ago) link
in ten years all commercial radio is either gonna be chr or talk
― balls, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:48 (eleven years ago) link
― some dude, Thursday, October 11, 2012 4:35 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
well, obviously there was an irreconcilable problem that the feedback loop had disappeared, right? that radio was just arbitrarily dictating airplay
i mean radio is already fraught w/ payola & etc.
it seems to me the real problem is that online sales produce no demographic information.
― The rain in Spin circles mainly on the mansplain (D-40), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:48 (eleven years ago) link
like, genre used to be determined by audience, now it's determined by ... the billboard people guessing based on ???
― The rain in Spin circles mainly on the mansplain (D-40), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:50 (eleven years ago) link
yeah, that's a huge problem
― some dude, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:51 (eleven years ago) link
D-40: as i was arguing earlier, just by how the artist in question came up and/or what the song sounds like (often contradictory)
ie Rihanna is and R&B artist so everything she does now is R&B.
― there is no dana, only (goole), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:52 (eleven years ago) link
*is an
I kind of get the impression payola is actually less of a problem in the post-Act world, because playlists are much more likely to be dictated by some suit at the top then by a radio dj who may be more amenable to an envelope full of bills. Not that that is a case for allowing corporations to buy up 1,000s of stations.
― Cap'n Hug-a-Thug (The Reverend), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:52 (eleven years ago) link
billboard's always pulled this shit though, i can think of twice in the past 15 years where they modified the hot 100 calculation effectively cuz it was skewing too r&b.
― balls, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:52 (eleven years ago) link
thanks to mergers there are no local morning zoo deejays getting paid off.
― the ones that I'm near most: fellow outcasts and ilxors (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:53 (eleven years ago) link
yeah huge lol at payola being anywhere near as big a problem now as it was ten, twenty, thirty, etc years ago
― balls, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:53 (eleven years ago) link
Glad to see this thread. My own area of special concern, Latin radio, is probably going to be severely affected in similar ways to the problems you guys have identified with R&B and country: first, superstars with with new releases are going to crowd out everyone else; good if you want more Shakira #1s (which I selfishly do), bad if you want to hear any reggaetón besides Daddy Yankee or W&Y or any bachata besides Royce and Romeo (both of which I really, really do). Second, it'll mean that Mexican regional music will be increasingly shut out of the main Latin chart, since airplay is the bread and butter of banda, cumbia, etc. And there'll be a LOT more J.Lo and Pitbull regardless of language or audience embrace. Pap
― JonJonAthanAthan, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:54 (eleven years ago) link
I think one thing people are forgetting here tho is that the charts aren't the only data radio stations have for determining what is popular. iirc, radio stations (especially better-financed ones) do a TON of focus-grouping. Also, call-ins.
― Cap'n Hug-a-Thug (The Reverend), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:54 (eleven years ago) link
in hip hop radio i can promise you payola it is still a big thing
― The rain in Spin circles mainly on the mansplain (D-40), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:55 (eleven years ago) link
yeah urban and country radio are VERY driven by call-in requests
― some dude, Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:56 (eleven years ago) link
xpost
mention of 50 cent & "in da club" is interesting too -- apart from all of this accountancy, different genres do wax and wane in creative power and popular appeal. it's not a stable equilibrium of li'l genres pumping out the same stuff to the same people every year
― there is no dana, only (goole), Thursday, 11 October 2012 21:56 (eleven years ago) link
and by nicki minaj stans who believe that her “super freaky girl” being the last pure rap song to top the hot 100 is yet more proof of her perfection
― is he disgruntled adrian? (voodoo chili), Monday, 28 August 2023 22:38 (six months ago) link
Extremely anecdotally (on the Taylor/Beyoncé thing) – when Swift was coming to town (and then actually here), my work Slack was full of ppl trying to get tickets... now that the Beyoncé shows are coming up, there are many folks selling/trying to unload Beyoncé tix (including on behalf of others). Kind of strange, not sure what's behind that... there was plenty of Beyoncé buzz when her album came out (and I never saw anyone mention Midnights).
― Stoned Wheat Thing (morrisp), Tuesday, 29 August 2023 18:14 (six months ago) link
that lines up w/ my experience too ... at the beginning of the renaissance tour there were those articles about people flying to sweden bcuz it was cheaper/easier to buy airfare + that ticket than to get into one of the USA shows. meanwhile fast forward to now and i have multiple friends flying to new orleans because resale tickets for those shows were sub-$200 (upper deck but still). i just talked to a friend yesterday who decided on a whim to fly to LA for the shows this weekend bcuz the tickets had dropped like crazy on the secondary market. so it does seem like something is happening there but i also don't really know why. there were those early reports about how she wasn't moving/dancing as well as she typically does but i've heard glowing reviews from everyone who has seen the show. then again they all paid like $600 to get in so maybe not unbiased sources, but i don't detect any backlash to the shows so it's not clear to me why the enthusiasm seems to be waning
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 29 August 2023 18:42 (six months ago) link
in my mind taylor hadn't toured in years whereas beyoncé has been out on the road a lot. but i looked up their touring schedules from 2015 on and that's not really the case, they've done the same number of tours. but the demand feels very different. the only thing i can think of is that a. swift has released a lot more music in between her tours than beyoncé has b. perhaps the marketing/structuring of the show as comprising all of her "eras" is really genius marketing, ppl feel like they're seeing a career spanning megashow as opposed to simple a tour attached to a new album
― J0rdan S., Tuesday, 29 August 2023 18:45 (six months ago) link
does it feel like the Beyonce resales are markedly more than any other non-Taylor Swift show? i guess that'd be the question. not that a Beyonce show isn't an "event", but these Taylor shows are essentially the most "can't miss" type gig to roll through, at least at this particular scale. it doesn't feel like the type of thing people are going to start to say "eh i don't really feel like going..." as it approaches.
― omar little, Tuesday, 29 August 2023 18:49 (six months ago) link
A couple things with Swift too was it seems like she was <this> close to announcing a Summer tour for 2020 when Covid happened, so there was pent-up demand from that, and it seems like she picked up a lot of new fans during the quarantine times. Like I know a number of people who were casual fans before then who are diehard Swifties now (dropping $$$ on tix, vinyl even though they don't own turntables etc.)
― an icon of a worried-looking, long-haired, bespectacled man (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 29 August 2023 18:57 (six months ago) link
xp I'm seeing resales for as low as $300 (that one's in Vegas, though); Row 2 of some "VIP" section for $750; Row 7 on on the field "Open to Best Offer (original price w/ fees is $1500 per tix)"... etc. Definitely on the higher side as concerts go, but not the crazy prices that Taylor tix were being offered at.
― Stoned Wheat Thing (morrisp), Tuesday, 29 August 2023 18:59 (six months ago) link
XPS I suspect the Beyonce resale market suffered from over-speculation from resellers hoping Eras lightning would strike twice.
― an icon of a worried-looking, long-haired, bespectacled man (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 29 August 2023 18:59 (six months ago) link
(OTOH, a coworker told me about a friend who has literally gone bankrupt from seeing 7 or 8 dates on the Beyoncé tour, in locations ranging from New Jersey to Paris. The friend has a ticket for another, and my coworker says he's trying to convince him to sell it, so he can pay his rent...)
― Stoned Wheat Thing (morrisp), Tuesday, 29 August 2023 19:01 (six months ago) link
Beyonce is definitely not catering to the casual audience with her setlists, where Swift's tour seems like it's kind of the perfect greatest hits type tour for everyone?
https://www.setlist.fm/setlist/beyonce/2023/allegiant-stadium-las-vegas-nv-33a50c75.html
no single ladies, halo, irreplaceable, baby boy etc....seems like she's trying a real specific vibe with this tour
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 29 August 2023 19:11 (six months ago) link
xxpthis whole convo reminds me of the old joke about a guy saying he thought he really wanted to be a boxer until he fought someone who REALLY wanted to be a boxer. I mean I thought I loved music until I got to ilm and heard anecdotes like flying across a country or even to another country just to see a gig, let alone falling into bankruptcy. insanity.
― oscar bravo, Tuesday, 29 August 2023 19:16 (six months ago) link
https://x.com/nytimesarts/status/1696611433641877507?s=46&t=u2ZSlsY3trRV36IPP6jNDQ
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 29 August 2023 19:59 (six months ago) link
On this week’s Popcast, conversations about the consonances between Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour and Beyoncé’s Renaissance World Tour, the way Swift does (and does not) deploy dance and the thrills of seeing her perform for the first time.
― curmudgeon, Tuesday, 29 August 2023 20:02 (six months ago) link
could part of it be very simply generational. That median beyonce fans are slightly older
― xheugy eddy (D-40), Tuesday, 29 August 2023 20:55 (six months ago) link