http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2009/01/added-bonus-irregardless-of-what-you-think-quot-conversate-quot-is-a-word/6549/
TNC: What fuels the notion that certain words aren't really words?JS: There a lot of different things. People feel that there is a certain kind of language that's appropriate and a certain type that isn't appropriate. And these judgments are based on many things--some may make sense, some might not. People take these things very seriously. People are told things about the language in school that are demonstrably untrue, and they think anyone who doesn't follow along with those beliefs is stupid or wrong.Let me give you an example, in terms of looking at things historically. At the beginning of this conversation you pronounced the word "ask" as "aks." This is something that people often object to. People say it's the wrong pronunciation, and it's stupid. But if you look at the history of the English language, you can't tell if the correct pronunciation is "aks" or "ask." The "aks" pronunciation goes back 1000 years. It's in Beowulf. It's in Chaucer. What happened was both were in use. But at some point, the dialect in which the "ask" pronunciation was used became dominant. But both continued and have been in use since then. When you look at America, the "aks" pronunciation is widespread in Southern American English. African-Americans used this because they were in the South--it's not especially African-American, but its Southern.Now, if you look at other Germanic languages, the "correct" pronunciation is, in fact, "ask"--but you can't tell that looking just at English and it ultimately doesn't matter. If I asked you to name the ordinal number between "second" and "fourth" you'd say, what?TNC: Third.JS: Right, third--but the old pronunciation is "thred," it comes from three. But if you were to say thred, you'd be considered a moron--even though it's "correct."
JS: There a lot of different things. People feel that there is a certain kind of language that's appropriate and a certain type that isn't appropriate. And these judgments are based on many things--some may make sense, some might not. People take these things very seriously. People are told things about the language in school that are demonstrably untrue, and they think anyone who doesn't follow along with those beliefs is stupid or wrong.
Let me give you an example, in terms of looking at things historically. At the beginning of this conversation you pronounced the word "ask" as "aks." This is something that people often object to. People say it's the wrong pronunciation, and it's stupid. But if you look at the history of the English language, you can't tell if the correct pronunciation is "aks" or "ask." The "aks" pronunciation goes back 1000 years. It's in Beowulf. It's in Chaucer.
What happened was both were in use. But at some point, the dialect in which the "ask" pronunciation was used became dominant. But both continued and have been in use since then. When you look at America, the "aks" pronunciation is widespread in Southern American English. African-Americans used this because they were in the South--it's not especially African-American, but its Southern.
Now, if you look at other Germanic languages, the "correct" pronunciation is, in fact, "ask"--but you can't tell that looking just at English and it ultimately doesn't matter. If I asked you to name the ordinal number between "second" and "fourth" you'd say, what?
TNC: Third.
JS: Right, third--but the old pronunciation is "thred," it comes from three. But if you were to say thred, you'd be considered a moron--even though it's "correct."
― a shark with a rippling six pack (Phil D.), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 17:41 (eleven years ago) link
Sheidlower seems cool
― Number None, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 17:45 (eleven years ago) link
He's totally cool.
But again, this is (1) not a grammar error and (2) not even technically an error and (3) never used in writing ANYWAY
So, again, is it racist?
― these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 18:06 (eleven years ago) link
just be safe and say yes
― EVERYONE COOKING SCMABLED EGGS,CHEESE WITH TOASTER!! (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 18:11 (eleven years ago) link
- " So then my manager had the nerve to axe me if I was going to stay late to work on the papers he could've given me a week ago!"
- "It's 'ask', by the way, but go on."
- "Oh, I'm sorry. Did they not include Beowulf in your high school curriculum?"
― pplains, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 18:18 (eleven years ago) link
racists are lower in the food chain than prescriptivist grammar pedants, but a combination of the two really makes me see red
― these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 18:19 (eleven years ago) link
'Aks' - thought it had a class rather than a race element eg. bridge'n'tunnel/Working Girl typing pool; there's also a Jennifer Belle novel where the protagonist needs a job, winds up selling real estate in NYC and knows she has ~crossed the great divide~ when she catches herself saying 'aks' to a client.
― ella fingerblast hurls forever (suzy), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 18:40 (eleven years ago) link
grammar nazi
― EVERYONE COOKING SCMABLED EGGS,CHEESE WITH TOASTER!! (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 19:18 (eleven years ago) link
word supremacist
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 19:19 (eleven years ago) link
yes its racist
― Author ~ Coach ~ Goddess (s1ocki), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 19:26 (eleven years ago) link
it's racist but also like, something more than racism
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 19:28 (eleven years ago) link
it transcends racism
― Author ~ Coach ~ Goddess (s1ocki), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 19:30 (eleven years ago) link
it's post-racist
― cake-like Lady Gaga (DJP), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 19:31 (eleven years ago) link
It's new RacismPLUS (tm)
― a shark with a rippling six pack (Phil D.), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 19:31 (eleven years ago) link
with a brand new whitening formula
― EVERYONE COOKING SCMABLED EGGS,CHEESE WITH TOASTER!! (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:15 (eleven years ago) link
Just put this together, but bond trader slang for things you really want to buy/sell is an "axe" and people will have lists of "axes." It's got to be because this is simply easier to pronounce and remember (and sounds a bit more macho than?) "asks".
― s.clover, Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:32 (eleven years ago) link
Just axe the Askis.He knows everything man.
― EVERYONE COOKING SCMABLED EGGS,CHEESE WITH TOASTER!! (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:38 (eleven years ago) link
I have always hated it when people say "aks" instead of "ask" but in recent years I have heard people say that they do so intentionally because "ask" sounds too much like "ass" and they don't want to curse
that unspeakable curse-syllable, "ass"
― Inconceivable (to the entire world) (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:46 (eleven years ago) link
Thank you for reminding me that the business-speak people in my office sum up problem-solving meetings by saying, "So what's our ask?" to mean, What requests do we have as a result of this discussion?
― purveyor of generations (in orbit), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:50 (eleven years ago) link
In the (frankly batshit) conversation where the cursing thing came up, J pointedly asked the dude who said this nonsense, "When you have a headache, do you aks if anyone has any apsirin?"
― cake-like Lady Gaga (DJP), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:52 (eleven years ago) link
<3 <3 J
― purveyor of generations (in orbit), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:52 (eleven years ago) link
― these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Wednesday, September 26, 2012 2:19 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
there are studies to be done about the correlation imo
― zachylon (zachlyon), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:54 (eleven years ago) link
but yeah criticizing AAVE for being AAVE is racist and particularly creepy when it's presented as like, librarian porn
― zachylon (zachlyon), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:55 (eleven years ago) link
and my favorite thing about futurama was how they use axe instead of ask, just as a way to deal with a thousand years of language change
― zachylon (zachlyon), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 20:57 (eleven years ago) link
oh god why am i reading the comments to the ta-nehisi interview
― zachylon (zachlyon), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 21:19 (eleven years ago) link
― zachylon (zachlyon), Wednesday, September 26, 2012 3:54 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― zachylon (zachlyon), Wednesday, September 26, 2012 3:55 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark
i mean right?!?!
― these albatrosses have no fear of man (La Lechera), Wednesday, 26 September 2012 21:25 (eleven years ago) link
I think I've mentioned this before, but years ago I was looking at a copy of an old Finnish newspaper from the beginning of the 20th century, and it had a list of the short movies a local movie theatre was showing, and apparently back then most movies had really descriptive titles, as the names of the movies were basically summaries of their plot. Anyway, one of the movies advertised was an American short called...
Negroes Being Chased by Ghosts While Stealing Melons!!
It's amazing how they managed to fit three different racist stereotypes into the title alone! I wonder what the actual movie was like?
― Tuomas, Monday, 1 October 2012 08:26 (eleven years ago) link
Sort of mumblecore avant-la-lettre sounds like.
― Bananaman Begins, Monday, 1 October 2012 08:53 (eleven years ago) link
Pretty sure that film is The Watermelon Patch. From one of the reviews: "In The Watermelon Patch, some black men steal watermelons. They're chased by two white men dressed in skeleton costumes, who were pretending to be scarecrows." There were quite a few racist watermelon films back then, though.
― Eyeball Kicks, Monday, 1 October 2012 09:19 (eleven years ago) link
That's my next band named, then.
― Three Word Username, Monday, 1 October 2012 09:33 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.defunkd.com/product/FA1344384051/vintage-1980s-op-ocean-pacific-snowboarding-white-t-shirt
― slugbuggy, Monday, 1 October 2012 10:35 (eleven years ago) link
That plot summary on imdb.com is certainly restrained:
Several men slip into a watermelon patch, intending to carry some of them off. They are surprised and pursued by two other men who had been hiding, but they still manage to get several melons. Soon the men and their families are enjoying themselves, but meanwhile others are trying to trace the missing watermelons.
Runtime: 11 mins.
― pplains, Monday, 1 October 2012 16:54 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.defunkd.com/product/FA1344384051/vintage-1980s-op-ocean-pacific-snowboarding-white-t-shirt― slugbuggy, Monday, 1 October 2012 10:35 (6 hours ago) Permalink
I doubt this had any racist intent behind it, although you could certainly read one in (i.e., guess who mainly snowboards: white people of the same ilk who fled cities)
― has important things to say about gangnam style (Hurting 2), Monday, 1 October 2012 16:56 (eleven years ago) link
that's kind of a stretch.
― goole, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:06 (eleven years ago) link
Several men slip into a watermelon patch, intending to carry some of them off. They are surprised and pursued by two other men who had been hiding, but they still manage to get several melons. Soon the men and their families are enjoying themselves, but meanwhile others are trying to trace the missing watermelons.Runtime: 11 mins.
Leaning towards yes.
― Bananaman Begins, Monday, 1 October 2012 17:30 (eleven years ago) link
So now you're dipping into silent films from the 1900s to look for racism? Jeez do we have to debate the merits of Bosko cartoons next?
― Frobisher the (Viceroy), Tuesday, 2 October 2012 01:06 (eleven years ago) link
White people sure were uptight about their watermelons back in the day.
― pplains, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 02:00 (eleven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-eitsutpOc
― the physical impossibility of sb in the mind of someone fping (silby), Tuesday, 2 October 2012 02:11 (eleven years ago) link
^ not an "is this racist?", just apposite to the discussion
We already have a Tim & Eric thread, btw.
― pplains, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 02:15 (eleven years ago) link
yeah i'm not reaching for some subtext like "hey wite ppl, let's hit the slopes; there's like one black family out here, at most." i'm just wtfing at the literal text and the blithely ham-fisted attempt to get it to suggest something like "grabbing some big air in the snow" or whatnot when the original denotation of "white flight" is just hanging out there.
also that board has no bindings he's gonna bite it hard when he tries to stick the landing.
― slugbuggy, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 08:37 (eleven years ago) link
x-posts
http://www.white-power.de/
Go ahead. Click. You'll be surprised.
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 09:23 (eleven years ago) link
Here's the story, as I understand it: there was a Dutch motorcycle tuner who was either a big ol' racist or a HAW HAW RACISM IS FUNNY asshole who started a company and called it White Power. The parts are very good, as it turns out, and the tuner gets rid of some of the Nazi iconography in their logos and comes up with a bullshit cover story for the company name (the parts were always colored white, so they said they named the company after the color of the parts). He sells the company and technology to KTM, who immediately renames it WP technology, although European motorcyclists still call the parts White Power parts. This German website is, I think, a fake distributor and only exists to get German skins &qu✧✧✧@white-po✧✧✧.d✧" e-mail addresses. Cute, huh?
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 09:37 (eleven years ago) link
in the UK there are a number of brands of strong flavourless cider which essentially exist purely to serve the needs of alcoholics and they have names which make them sound like NS skinhead bands such as
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/25445_366571540305_4220065_a.jpg
and http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kqwmfwR5BS1qa6qi7o1_500.jpg
and my personal favourite http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E-4q3Rqk0-w/TneisWDey9I/AAAAAAAAAIs/2mLO0sEKso8/s320/31012010245.jpg
years ago my friend swore he saw one called WHITE POWER but not sure my credulity stretches that far
― please do not post on reddit as reusal often offends (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 2 October 2012 09:50 (eleven years ago) link
first one is legit frightening
― goole, Tuesday, 2 October 2012 14:23 (eleven years ago) link
This one's an interesting one.
http://www.theage.com.au/entertainment/books/rowling-book-faces-backlash-in-india-over-sikh-slur-20121003-26yxx.html
So Rowling's new "adult" novel has loads of nasty characters in it, but:
The Casual Vacancy, released last week, has sparked criticism from readers taking exception to passages about a character named Sukhvinder, a surgeon's daughter who is teased about her looks and is described as a "hairy man-woman" and "mustachioed yet large-mammaried".
Now, my assmption (not having read the book) is the descriptions therein are from a bullying character in the novel, and not her personally saying she thinks that of Sikh women.
Seems obvious to me. Is it racist to have racist characters in a novel? Shirly not?
― frances boredom coconut (Trayce), Wednesday, 3 October 2012 10:27 (eleven years ago) link
White Storm / White Strike both knock-offs of White Lightning, which has since been discontinued.
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 3 October 2012 10:55 (eleven years ago) link
Lots of Sikhs in the novel, which I have not read, but have read this:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/oct/02/sikh-protests-jk-rowling-misplaced
― ella fingerblast hurls forever (suzy), Wednesday, 3 October 2012 12:45 (eleven years ago) link
i was just going to say "maybe jk rowling needs to go to REDDIT for some TOLERANCE" but it seems the internet beat me to it
― Mary Ty$ Band (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 3 October 2012 12:48 (eleven years ago) link