I still think the distinctions are more sociological than that. Like Buddy Holly is out but Carl Perkins is in because he sounds like more of a hillbilly. Doesn't have anything to do with how rocking their records are.
― timellison, Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:34 (eleven years ago) link
Perkins has more of a blues-influence I think. Hard rock has more of the blues, soft rock is more influenced by folk.
― o. nate, Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:37 (eleven years ago) link
Perkins probably has more blues AND more country than Holly - so what? Holly is excluded for being more of an innovator? His records are just as rocking as Perkins', perhaps more. And they are based in blues and country, not in folk.
― timellison, Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:43 (eleven years ago) link
(Obviously, he made a couple of pop recordings with an arranger also. I'm talking about the Crickets records.)
― timellison, Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:45 (eleven years ago) link
A reminder that Buddy Holly is not actually being excluded but is not present because he was not alive or recording music in the 1980s...
― Frobisher the (Viceroy), Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:45 (eleven years ago) link
I'm not that familiar with Holly to tell the truth. If he's more blues-oriented then I think he's in that lineage too.
― o. nate, Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:47 (eleven years ago) link
and carl perkins is more of a line-straddler anyway. i'd frame it as buddy holly vs. chuck berry & jerry lee lewis, both of whom rock in a much more aggressive fashion.
― contenderizer, Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:48 (eleven years ago) link
Of '80s artists, I think someone like John Cougar Mellencamp, whom I mentioned before, is a borderline case. Clearly he had pop crossover appeal, but he also rocked pretty emphatically and had a strong blues influence. So I'm not sure what the call would be on him. Or Bon Jovi for that matter.
― o. nate, Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:51 (eleven years ago) link
like, it's not just rocking vs not, the vibe being put across is important, too. at their most extreme, berry & lewis made raw, aggressive and libidinal music. it still sounds like bombs going off. maybe it's hard to hear the connection today, but i think of "great balls of fire" as the first punk rock song i ever really loved. there wasn't wasn't as much visceral threat or sexual swagger in buddy holly's rock.
― contenderizer, Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:58 (eleven years ago) link
I don't hear Chuck Berry as being much more aggressive than Holly. Bo Diddley certainly wasn't!
― timellison, Thursday, 23 August 2012 21:59 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah, the vocals are important. They should swagger a bit. Frank Sinatra could be pretty punk rock too.
― o. nate, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:00 (eleven years ago) link
subjective, of course. i do. (xp)
same probably applies to mellcamp and bon jovi. the sense of danger and violence in their music is very tame down compared with the metal, punk and hard rock of the era.
― contenderizer, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:01 (eleven years ago) link
I'm not sure I agree. Some of the more extreme bands end up trying too hard, IMO. They sound more cartoonish than actually dangerous.
― o. nate, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:02 (eleven years ago) link
The criteria do largely seem sonic to me but I'm pretty sure that framing it in terms of whether or not something 'rocks' will only lead us in circles. I do think that the bands I listed make sense as reference points in terms of prior influences/sources. I don't know that as much can be gained by tracing it back to the 50s, actually. (I can see a line from Who/Hendrix to Sonic Youth without too much difficulty but it gets blurrier if we start talking about Buddy Holly vs Chuck Berry.)
xposts
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:02 (eleven years ago) link
I AM very surprised that someone wouldn't hear Chuck Berry's sound as more aggressive than Buddy Holly's though!
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:03 (eleven years ago) link
The thing is, the Gories are allowed in the poll and the Jam are not.
― timellison, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:05 (eleven years ago) link
holly was ingratiating. he asked for a lady's hand and heart. he was nice about it, for the most part. he didn't often attack the beat with the ferocity that berry brings to "maybelline" and "johnny b. goode". he didn't sing about his ding-a-ling. he didn't wear a cobra snake for a necktie.
― contenderizer, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:05 (eleven years ago) link
"Johnny B. Goode" hangs back in the pocket, I think. It's not that aggressive. "Maybellene" is jaunty.
I think Holly made some pretty tough rockabilly with numbers like "That'll Be the Day" and "Oh Boy."
― timellison, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:13 (eleven years ago) link
To get technical, Berry's guitar style also emphasized parallel motion (even in lead playing) with an overdriven sound, which you can see as a direct antecedent of power-chord riffing.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:13 (eleven years ago) link
I was idly thinking that this could be seen perhaps as a sort of 'rock' that can be traced back to roots in Who/Kinks/Cream/Hendrix/Zeppelin/Sabbath as opposed to the traditional canon that would also include Buddy Holly, Dylan, the Byrds, the Band, (Beatles and Stones even?), etc. I think the noise and improv elements still make sense in this context.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, August 23, 2012 1:15 PM (1 hour ago)
sund4r otm. also that it's probably a mistake to get caught up in hashing out the rockingness of 50s shit. the vision of rock that organizes this poll does seem descended from the late 60s and especially the 70s: a combination of masculinity, aggression, intensity, noise, experimentation, and aspiration to the status of art.
― contenderizer, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:14 (eleven years ago) link
plus 70s punk + 80s metal
― contenderizer, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:15 (eleven years ago) link
But, really, if you hear "Oh Boy" as equally or more aggressive than "Johnny B. Goode", I'm not sure how to convince you tbh.
xpost to self
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:15 (eleven years ago) link
Part of my point was that 70s punk and 80s metal BOTH seem to owe something to the influences I cited.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:16 (eleven years ago) link
yeah, agree - was just extending forward from the late 60s/early-mid 70s examples
― contenderizer, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:18 (eleven years ago) link
I think "Johnny B. Goode" is fairly subtle, really. He plays muted rhythm guitar, it hangs back in the pocket, etc. I mean, sure, there's some raunch in the leads. The Crickets had some raunch as well.
― timellison, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:21 (eleven years ago) link
He projects more as a singer, too.
― timellison, Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:22 (eleven years ago) link
(Berry, that is.)
In any case, contenderizer was right re what I was getting at:
also that it's probably a mistake to get caught up in hashing out the rockingness of 50s shit. the vision of rock that organizes this poll does seem descended from the late 60s and especially the 70s: a combination of masculinity, aggression, intensity, noise, experimentation, and aspiration to the status of art
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 23 August 2012 22:28 (eleven years ago) link
Comparing the versions of "Brown Eyed Handsome Man" by Berry and Holly is interesting, by the way. There doesn't seem to be any notable distinction with regard to how much either version rocks. Berry sings it with more of a croon, actually, while Holly has his rockabilly singing style. Berry's version swings a little more, but Holly's is faster.
― timellison, Friday, 24 August 2012 00:16 (eleven years ago) link
hehe what a strange diversion
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Friday, 24 August 2012 15:30 (eleven years ago) link
bump
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, 25 August 2012 10:22 (eleven years ago) link
closes sunday night 11.59pm now. if a kindly mod could change both thread titles that would be awesome.
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, 25 August 2012 16:01 (eleven years ago) link
You want it changed from midnight to 11:59 p.m.?
― Bobby-fil-A (WmC), Saturday, 25 August 2012 16:04 (eleven years ago) link
yes please! Just so everyone knows it finishes sat night now instead of sunday morning.
Thanks very much WmC and sorry to be a nuisance
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, 25 August 2012 16:09 (eleven years ago) link
sunday night it finishes now i mean haha
Current thread title is "Sunday night midnight" -- you want a one minute change?
― Bobby-fil-A (WmC), Saturday, 25 August 2012 16:18 (eleven years ago) link
A whole minute?
yes because it looked like it finished 24 hours earlier
thanks!
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, 25 August 2012 20:15 (eleven years ago) link
that's insane
― i know your nuts hurt! who's laughing? (contenderizer), Saturday, 25 August 2012 20:19 (eleven years ago) link
what, letting ppl know the nominations have been extended 24 hours?
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, 25 August 2012 20:26 (eleven years ago) link
agk, you're sure you've never done any drugs?
― how's life, Saturday, 25 August 2012 20:28 (eleven years ago) link
...but who am i to say
ALBUMS THAT ROCK:
The Reverb Motherfuckers - Route 666The Honeymoon Killers - Turn Me On
― i know your nuts hurt! who's laughing? (contenderizer), Saturday, 25 August 2012 20:42 (eleven years ago) link
oh, I see where you got that idea
just so we're on the same page, this closes in roughly 9 hours, right?― Hellhouse, Saturday, August 25, 2012 1:26 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalinknah will make it tomorrow night― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, August 25, 2012 2:29 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Hellhouse, Saturday, August 25, 2012 1:26 PM (7 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
nah will make it tomorrow night
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, August 25, 2012 2:29 PM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― how's life, Saturday, 25 August 2012 20:45 (eleven years ago) link
BLAME HELLHOUSE!
― i know your nuts hurt! who's laughing? (contenderizer), Saturday, 25 August 2012 20:47 (eleven years ago) link
yes, that is exactly why I asked
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, 25 August 2012 20:49 (eleven years ago) link
hellhouse is a shit-stirrer
― how's life, Saturday, 25 August 2012 21:00 (eleven years ago) link
and he wont tell anyone who he is
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, 25 August 2012 21:12 (eleven years ago) link
one minute?!?!
― Frobisher the (Viceroy), Saturday, 25 August 2012 21:12 (eleven years ago) link
no, 23 hours and 59 minutes ACTUALLY
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Saturday, 25 August 2012 21:22 (eleven years ago) link
Fates Warning - Perfect Symmetry
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 25 August 2012 21:54 (eleven years ago) link