a divorce thread

Guy was a good stay-at-home dad but a terrible husband (got them into debt, may have cheated, failed to look for a job even though she didn't earn enough to support them, comes from a bad home, etc.)

First three i understand, but "comes from a bad home"? Please tell me you don't hold that against him.

I come from a bad home too. Good thing I'm not married since I'd make a shit husband evidently....

yeah I think my wife said something gentle along the lines of "take it slow."

Sorry about the "bad home" comment, didn't come out right. My dad came from a difficult family situation too and he's a great dad and husband. With this guy it's a little more complicated -- it's not just that he has bad male role models but that his crazy family is still around and messing with things and causing her problems.

no prob, i understand. It's just that if you've grown up in a dysfunctional family (or are close to someone who has), it stings when i hear or read things like that. I've had employers, potential dates, and others not want anything to do with me because they were skittish about my background, things that were done by other people and were completely out of my control.

Isn't dating similar people fairly common?

A friend of mine came back into town once after breaking up with his girlfriend. He came up to my apartment with this girl and I had to take him aside and say, "I thought you broke up with so-and-so." And he says, "I did. That's not her!" They looked and talked almost identically.

I'll cop to dating the same kind of girl over and over. Sunny's the only one who's not like the others and that's likely the reason we've stuck together.

One of my favorite law professors, an old guy who had been married to the same woman since he was 20, told me "A lot of people who divorce really shouldn't bother, because when they remarry they just marry their exes again."

― bert yansh (Hurting 2), Monday, August 20, 2012 2:47 PM (4 hours ago)

i know someone who is currently doing that exactly

my best friend called a couple weeks ago, i knew she had some news, was super anxious all day that she was gonna tell me she was pregnant - but it turned out she had finally left her awful husband! so happy for her. unfortunately, it happened the same week a v v close relative died, she is having a rough time of it. probably didn't help that one of the last things her childless aunt said to her was basically "my dying wish is that you hurry up and have a baby".

i am sorry that her aunt died, but ugh that is a bullshit thing to say

yeah i had to refrain from commenting on that - they were v close, esp because her family life has/is pretty fucked up, her aunt was like a mother to her. but that kind of pressure is bullshit. idk i think the net result was good - my friend's marriage had been fucked for a long time, but she wasn't able to make a decision and the husb was pressuring her for babies so she'd gone off the pill as was counting days in her cycle and avoiding sex when necessary (so crazy!!!) - but when her aunt said the above, it made her realise that for real she had to get out bc she did not want this man's kids, ever.

First three i understand, but "comes from a bad home"?

Sadly, he's on target. There are exceptions (my dad) but having to carry that background, it is very difficult to shake it off. Even my dad is still suffering from it. And even though he's a really great dad (and I guess husband, though my mom would sometimes vehemently disagree), there are influences from the past that trickle through.

I hope I never divorce, I really have a great husband. Sure we sometimes have problems. But I guess one thing I learned from my parents: even having terrible periods, sticking together is the best.

One sad thing is seeing how many people divorce these days and so quickly. Yikes. My kids are (or rather were) in kindergarten and there already you have so many parents who are divorced. I mean, shit, that is so sad. Some kids really suffer immensely from it. :-(

i hope i never get divorced either but not so sure sticking together is always best. our parents had a long happy marriage but both my siblings got divorced. my sister and her husband split up acrimoniously, were divorced for five years, and then got back together! they now seem happier than they ever were before, like they worked out whatever had plagued them during the first 15 years of marriage. their kids, early teens then college now, seemed bemused by the split but they've always been reserved/quiet types. my brother otoh got married young and divorced after 13 years. he and his wife seemed miserable during the last few years of their marriage and instantly became easier to deal with, like a weight had been lifted. their kids were younger and the split affected them negatively afaict, even though their parents remained a united front and didn't put their 2 daughters between them. both are in their 20s now, doing well, maintaining healthy relationships w/both parents. my brother's ex re-married (to an old hippie-totally out of character) while he remains single and seems to have given up on dating. but he's not pining away, that's for sure.

bottom line is they were both lucky, cause divorce is devastating and should be avoided but it doesn't have to be a death sentence

I hate to sound all family-first conservative, but I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough -- there's this tendency to constantly happiness-check and love-check -- "Do I still feel it? Am I satisfied? Am I getting what I want?" that I think pushes people apart more quickly. IMO a lot of the POINT of marriage is that you agree to stick out bad periods and down periods and periods where you're not head-over-heels and periods where you're not 100% satisfied (not to mention periods of financial difficulty, stress, illness, etc.) -- that's what commitment means. You agree to do that because it strengthens both of you and your children as well. Of course there are toxic situations that don't strengthen people at all, and there are problems that don't deserve working through, and there are scenarios where one partner doesn't even want to TRY to work out problems. But there are also ways in which bad feelings about a marriage can be reflexive -- the more you think about what you're not getting, the more dissatisfied you get, the more resentful you become, the less willing you become to try to work with your partner to find solutions, etc.

I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough

i agree - my friend mentioned above should never have gotten married in the first place but
1. her husband made a really elaborate proposal that she later admitted she wanted to say no to but didn't have the guts
2. there was a major incident of his assholery about a month before their wedding, but she refused to call it off because it was her "only chance" at a "fairy tale wedding".

dear god

yeah i love my friend, she is one of the best ppl i know, but when she told me all this stuff i was like.... WHAT ARE YOU DOING. but there were some other factors at play, too.

but she also pulled some asshole moves of her own, in order to engineer this final separation - she couldn't pull the trigger on making a final decision about staying with him or leaving, so she did some pretty dickish stuff so ensure it would happen.

that's really sad, must be a lot harder to watch when it's a close friend

Most "fairy tale weddings" in my experience are indeed a fairy tale, but in the wrong sense

I think a lot of people don't take the vows of marriage seriously enough

For sure. Just about every married couple in my family has separated or divorced in the last couple years (and most of the rest have ended because of death). Between that and having a relationship that seemed headed towards marriage blow up in my own face...well, 'gunshy' is too weak a word. People just don't seem inclined to stick it out anymore. Probably part of the fallout of living in a society that promotes an illusion of infinite options.

There's definitely an obsession with 'happiness' as a state of being that I notice among my friends and coworkers. Which to me is really just logically not attainable, except in moments. and that's whether you are single or in a relationship. you're never going to be permanently in a state of happiness. you're just not.

but it can be really hard for people to know moment to moment if the situation they're in, when it's unsatisfactory, is going to improve, or get worse, or stay the same. Not everyone can or wants to embrace that kind of uncertainty, and in my own personal experience a great deal of a relationship is kind of, well, founded on uncertainty. "Do I know for SURE that this person is the right person for me? No. But they are now. And I feel good about finding out."
"Do I know for SURE that this situation will improve? No. But I want to see where this goes, and I want to do that with my partner."

But I'm well aware that that kind of logic really only applies to me in my own marriage. I can't really speak for anyone else's.

Probably part of the fallout of living in a society that promotes an illusion of infinite options.

― Old Lunch, Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:44 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yeah, this. Being married to someone means saying "ok, I accept the possibility that I may have missed out on someone even MORE great for me [or on an amazing single life], and I accept that." Because never making any choice means missing out, too, perhaps even moreso.

xpost

That makes sense to me. There's an extent to which you really need to try to see the forest for the trees and take the long view in a partnership so that if you happen to be unhappy at this particular moment, your brain doesn't immediately go to dissolving that partnership as the obvious solution. I tend to think that people with that mindset are gonna just keep going to that same solution rather than dealing with what might actually be the source of their unhappiness (i.e. themselves).

my parents are a weird example; our family went through a pretty rough time through my teens and twenties, during which time my parents pretty much openly disliked each other. but they didn't divorce because that wasn't a thing you do, and mum had this obsession about 'staying together for the kids'...which eventually seemed kind of ridiculous since it was clear to 'the kids' that mum & dad were basically aquaintances who lived under the same roof. they're still together now, perhaps a little friendlier now than they were, but certainly nothing close to an example of two people in love in any real shape or form. Mum's openly admitted that she does not love Dad. So it's like, well, okay you're together but there's no medal for that, you know that right? I dunno. That made it sort of hard to go into a marriage myself, not really having much of a practical example of how to have one except to, you know, 'tolerate' the other person which wasn't really what I wanted. So you just kind of make your own example for yourself, and figure it out as you go.
but in general seeing my parents experience kind of makes me think there's no real right or wrong situation for any couple, it's just whatever works.

my parents are pretty similar, vg - they will never divorce because it would be too hard and complicated, and financially they'd be pretty fucked on their own. i think my stepdad could have a chance at a real relationship with someone else, but he'd never leave my mother. and my mother has no apparent inner life, isn't very loving/caring/affectionate/empathetic; i am 100% sure she would never find anyone else to put up with her.

man

my parents are so genuinely fond of each other, they are like an actual real life Cliff and Claire Huxtable

Does that make you Theo, Dan?

my parents are pretty similar, vg - they will never divorce because it would be too hard and complicated, and financially they'd be pretty fucked on their own

That's how mine are too - and a big part of the reason i never wanted to get married. To this day, the first thing that comes to mind when i hear the word "marriage" is a woman and a man screaming at each other.

Man, just1n3, that's a frighteningly-accurate description of my parents but in reverse. I hate to admit it, but (my parents') home has only been comfortable for the first time in my life since my dad died.

xxp: given birth order, I think that makes me Rudy, although I'm terrified that I'm actually Vanessa

my parents pretty much openly disliked each other.

Well, my mother hated my dad's guts. As a result she sort of brainwashed me into hating him. In hindsight I first felt guilty for hating him, then I was angry at my mom and now I realize she just fucked up. hah. I still remember that she told me:"I am not going through with the divorce because I don't want to lose our business." On the one hand I find that exceptionally coldhearted but otoh it was a good decision: they stuck together and became happy again (and then unhappy again and then... repeat ad nauseam) and it is a fact (especially) women have a crappy financial deal when there's a divorce.

I think one of the mistakes people make is not only forgetting wedding is about going through bad and good times; but that you will not be as happy trippy in love after a while. I don't miss it at all. Now I have this wonderful feeling of having a better half. Someone who knows me better than I do myself.

Also, I am exceptionally patient and tolerant. lololol (I am not being arrogant, I really am.)

I am not disagreeing with anything in specific but just positing that before divorce rates go down, we will probably maybe see some changes to what "marriage" means, practically speaking? Because the ideal of marriage as being forever and your spouse being your best friend and confidante and also helpmeet and co-parent and co-wage-earner and stuff...that happens for some people but it's too big a burden for all personality types and all the different needs ppl have? Also I'm not the historical expert but that hasn't been anything like what "marriage" meant for most of the history of marriage iirc? The world has changed a lot but the marriage ideal hasn't much.

I have been thinking about that (marriage being sth different now) and it scares me. I grew up with very few people divorcing (around me). So I still consider a marriage to be long lasting (or rather ever lasting). First time I heard about it I was in my teens and I really had no clue what it meant. I just can't change with the current times. Or at least I hope I won't. I want it to last.

actually, the "marriage ideal" has changed radically over the last few hundred years. There largely wasn't an expectation of a romantic relationship in the medieval era or earlier

xp - to Laurel
I dunno, I think it has changed and been adjusted to fit the individual needs of people all the time, it's just that people don't really dissect their relationships publicly all that much, at least not in the society I grew up in. I certainly never would.

The only marriage people seem to feel comfortable talking about is the one you described, but there are lots of irl marriages that differ from that in any number of ways.

I think about my parents too. My dad has been borderline controlling/abusive for parts of their lives, and if my mom were a healthy person with functional boundaries she'd have left him a long time ago but that wasn't an option to her so she didn't. But her life has been kinda sacrificed to him and the ideal of the nuclear family. And like in reality he is just not that pleasant a person, and even if he were less dysfunctional, he would not be an easy person to live with.

I think that about myself a lot, too, and how living w someone full-time and spending the majority of our free time together and cooperating on everything would just be an endless battle against following my inclinations or meeting my own needs? I am not that pleasant, and I am not that accommodating or selfless, and I don't say that proudly, I'm just saying that a person who would be able to stay with me under those conditions would probably not be totally healthy themselves. So...it's probably better this way? For me? I don't know how I'll end up obvs but there should be other options for romantic partnerships that aren't the kind of official marriages we've turned into the ONLY kind for the last...70 years? Or so?

There are all kinds of options. Don't spend years wondering why you don't fit into a box, yknow?

Nah LL you are probably otm and I appreciate that counter-weight (+ your earlier post above). I guess I don't have that much experience with non-traditional marriages, not having seen v many of them in action.

free floating observation:
Even people who love one another dearly and who are a good match in most ways are going to have some times in their marriage where matters get pretty grim for a time and it takes massive committment to work their way through it. imo, that's a given. Not everyone entering marriage seems to realize this.

the ideal of marriage as being forever and your spouse being your best friend and confidante and also helpmeet and co-parent and co-wage-earner and stuff

I think this description allows for a wide spectrum of implementation tbh; for some ppl, it's going to be all about 50/50 responsibility splits and spending as much time together as possible, while for others it means finding someone willing to give them space at the drop of a hat but will be a support system when asked, to something else completely different

Because ppl are so idiosyncratic, you can't really define "compatibility" in any type of universal way. Also, it's impossible for anyone to be happy 100% of the time and any relationship using that as a foundation or a measurement of success is doomed; in many ways I think it's more important to know how the relationship works when people are angry, sad or upset, because that's the hard part of making things work.

stevienixed your mum sounds kinda similar to mine -- I grew up resenting my dad for reasons that were poured into my ear by Mum, only to learn later in life that Dad's evils were blown way out of proportion by Mum just as a means of control, so she wouldn't have to face up to being kind of a crazyperson during that time.

it used to bum me out that I never grew up seeing my parents enjoying being around each other; smiling or hugging or kissing or anything like that. but I will gladly take what they have now, over what they were like when I was younger. I mean, the fact that they go places together on their own is kind of awesome to us now, lol.

Paul F Tompkins described the way his parents marriage was, that they were fun people in their 20s who liked going to parties and being together, and got married and had kids, but once they were in the marriage and had the kids, it was like they opened a present and found a sucky gift inside. And so they just kind of lived out their marriage resenting that the present sucked. (major paraphrasing)
That's kind of how mine were.

I am not disagreeing with anything in specific but just positing that before divorce rates go down, we will probably maybe see some changes to what "marriage" means, practically speaking? Because the ideal of marriage as being forever and your spouse being your best friend and confidante and also helpmeet and co-parent and co-wage-earner and stuff...that happens for some people but it's too big a burden for all personality types and all the different needs ppl have? Also I'm not the historical expert but that hasn't been anything like what "marriage" meant for most of the history of marriage iirc? The world has changed a lot but the marriage ideal hasn't much.

― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Tuesday, August 21, 2012 1:55 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Actually, divorce rates have been going down, significantly so. But I'm not really sure I know what you mean -- aren't people relatively free to create whatever kind of marriage they want at this point (or not to get married at all)? I think married couples vary pretty widely in how they negotiate these things.

my parents are so genuinely fond of each other

especially on mothers day iirc

oh not just on Mother's Day, believe me

Okay! I don't know anything about the statistics and did not look them up before making that post, I just ran with the anecdotal impression from the other posts that people feel like they are seeing a lot of divorces among their peers. And like I said before, I also don't see a lot of non-trad marriages/relationships first-hand and the ones I do see I prob don't give enough thought to the variety of ways in which they are non-traditional, since they still live together, vacation together, have kids together (not all, obvs) that kind of thing, so from the outside it seems p normal. But that could be because they just don't talk about it & dissect it outside of the relationship. They could all be secret weirdos for all I know! In a good way. I guess people who partner each oth long-term but choose not to marry are making a non-traditional choice, especially if they choose not to marry and still to have kids. That kind of thing is interesting to me.

I know a couple that has bought a (very expensive) house and now the woman is actively trying to get pregnant but they are not married and probably never will be and yeah it is interesting

xp yeah I think at some point if you don't want to live together, vacation together etc. the better option is probably just not getting married. Although there are a fair number of academic married couples, for example, who live apart large parts of the year -- more often childless than not, I think.

I'm also at least acquainted with people who chose to have kids without formal marriage, although I think a lot of things about their arrangements probably are similar to mariage.

As for choosing to have children together and living and/or vacationing separately, I think there are just practical reasons why that doesn't happen that often. For one thing, not having a second person around to help with kids is just going to make it much harder, and I'm not really sure what would be desirable about that.

I mean my wife just took K for a few days out of the city without me and then I joined them later on, and she's occasionally done things on her own like an art residency, but we're a pretty traditional married couple overall.

fwiw having a stable parents and family b/g doesnt make a guarantee of being ok with relationships. My parents are still together, seem perfectly happy, never had any major fallings out (tho that, at times, was due to mum being a bit of a martyr and just coping with issues that came up and supressing rage marge simpson style, i suspect). Despite being surrounded by perfectly regular fam, with 2 broters married with kids, I appear to be a complete relationship fuckup and am 41 and single again.

I mean my wife just took K for a few days out of the city without me

quoted out of context...

As a kid I remember feeling very out-of-place in that my parents were still together. And they still are - and they still totally seem to dig each other. They aren't super emotional and affectionate, which kinda skewed my perception of relationships for a while (I didn't realize until very, very recently that I need a lot of affection).

I fully plan on getting divorced one day. ;)

Nathalie, aren't you also the one who thinks that masturbation is wrong? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Either way, 'sticking it out for the kids' is NOT the best solution imo. Especially if the two parents openly despise one another.

never said it was. it's just the example I grew up with