ATTN: Copyeditors and Grammar Fiends

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I use Shem to mean both.

― Pete (Pete), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:19 (9 years ago) Permalink

good point ptee:

things belonging to Cousin It are Cousin It's

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:19 (9 years ago) Permalink

"Them".

― Chris P (Chris P), Thursday, 17 July 2003 14:31 (9 years ago) Permalink

I use the third person plural rather than any of the other alternatives. If you actually put things into plural as much as possible, that helps.

― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 17 July 2003 19:47 (9 years ago) Permalink

Alternating him and her was the Thing to Do when I was at Hahvahd.

That's what people kept telling me, but I was never that adventurous.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 17 July 2003 20:21 (9 years ago) Permalink

I was going to make Chris's point without solid evidence. Hurrah for 'them'.

― N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 17 July 2003 21:04 (9 years ago) Permalink

y'know what? that it's/its thing has been bothering me for years and now i know. didn't realise it was that simple. Its like an epiphany ;-)

― dog latin (dog latin), Friday, 18 July 2003 01:16 (9 years ago) Permalink

Using "them" or any other plural pronoun to refer to a singular antecedent is a horrible horrible thing and should be avoided.

It used to be gramatically acceptable to use a masculine pronoun (he, him, etc.) when referring to a person of unspecified gender (you know what I mean.. I can't think of any other way to put it), but now the "he or she"/"his or her" method is the proper form.

I'm not sure if it makes a difference whether you use a slash or the word "or." I suspect that the slash is unacceptable in formal writing.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Friday, 18 July 2003 02:11 (9 years ago) Permalink

"giving feedback to a subordinate helps motherfuckers learn," italics or boldface on "learn" obv. possible/encouraged

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Friday, 18 July 2003 02:33 (9 years ago) Permalink

"I know what you're thinking. Did s/he fire six shots or only five?"

― amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 18 July 2003 03:31 (9 years ago) Permalink

I suspect that the slash is unacceptable in formal writing.

Unless it's academic writing, and it allows you to make a terrible pun somehow.

― jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 18 July 2003 04:31 (9 years ago) Permalink

but now the "he or she"/"his or her" method is the proper form.

Proper, maybe. But it should be pointed out that if you're having to cram this into your sentence, you;re writing a clumsy sentence, and you should probably drop back and punt.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 18 July 2003 04:34 (9 years ago) Permalink

Not that I don't write clumsy sentences all the time, mind you. It's just that I'm aware of it.

― Kenan Hebert (kenan), Friday, 18 July 2003 04:35 (9 years ago) Permalink

7 months pass...

Quick - is "fact-checking" hyphenated? Or is it "factchecking"? Oh no, they both look weird!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:24 (9 years ago) Permalink

I use the hyphen.

― Mary (Mary), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:44 (9 years ago) Permalink

So...should I?

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

I am never sure with phrases like that. I don't think you'll be shot down for any of the three options. The Guardian style guide is not very helpful on this point:

hyphens
Our style is to use one word wherever possible, including some instances where a word might be hyphenated by other publications. Hyphens tend to clutter up text (particularly when the computer breaks already hyphenated words at the end of lines)

Inventions, ideas and new concepts often begin life as two words, then become hyphenated, before finally becoming accepted as one word. Why wait? "Wire-less" and "down-stairs" were once hyphenated. In pursuit of this it is preferable to go further than Collins does in many cases: eg trenchcoat is two words in Collins but one under our style

Never use hyphens after adverbs, eg politically naive, wholly owned. But do use them to form compound adjectives, eg two-tonne vessel, three-year deal

Do use hyphens where not using one would be ambiguous, eg to distinguish "black-cab drivers come under attack" from "black cab-drivers come under attack"

― N. (nickdastoor), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:48 (9 years ago) Permalink

For a US employer, I would go with fact checker, noun, and fact-check, verb, though I don't think it's that important, unless you are applying for a copyediting job as a copy editor.

― Mary (Mary), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

Well, it is for a US employer and it does involve some copyediting. I am going for "fact-checking". Thanks!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Monday, 8 March 2004 00:57 (9 years ago) Permalink

But both N. and Mary advise against using a hyphen, so what are you thanking them for? I agree with both of them. If you're a "fact-checking cuz" the hyphen works, but a "fact checker" should be two words, like a "kitchen porter" or a "piano tuner." Some jobs have become one word, like "dishwasher," and maybe fact checkers are edging into this privileged group. But I think a hyphen is wrong for the noun you're looking for.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 03:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

I would go with fact checker, noun, and fact-check, verb,

Tracer, I read this as advocating the phrase "fact-checking" as a verb (sorry, should have made that clear) so thanks were in order!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 04:16 (9 years ago) Permalink

Thanks!

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 04:16 (9 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, it's all signed, sealed, stamped, and delivered now, so we shall see what comes of it...

― @d@ml (nordicskilla), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 04:17 (9 years ago) Permalink

Silly Tracer: Fact checker is the noun, fact-check is the verb, and fact-checking is the gerund. When in doubt search Google News and align your style with the New York Times or similar. I've just realized that this thread title is wrong—it should be Copy editors.

― Mary (Mary), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 09:43 (9 years ago) Permalink

Yes, silly Tracer.

― N. (nickdastoor), Tuesday, 9 March 2004 11:44 (9 years ago) Permalink

6 months pass...

grammar question:

assuming i only have one brother, would it be acceptable to write, "I went with my brother Isaac to the store" or do i have to write, "I went with my brother, Isaac, to the store" ?

for some reason i am under the impression that non-essential info can be stuck in without commas as long as it is only one or two words. but apparently, this is wrong?

― j c (j c), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:33 (8 years ago) Permalink

A former professor of mine used to refuse to grade papers where the "it's/its" mistake was made. He marked them "Apostrophe Apocalypse"

― Hurting (Hurting), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:37 (8 years ago) Permalink

I'd drop the commas, j c - that many commas were more popular in a time long past, but I think it can look a tad oldfashioned these days.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 1 October 2004 04:13 (8 years ago) Permalink

If Isaac's your only brother, then you need the commas, because "my brother" and "Isaac" are both referring to the same thing and "Isaac" is therefore a nonessential element. That is, if you just said "my brother," that would be enough information to know who you were talking about, since you only have one. Likewise, if you have more than one brother, the name becomes essential information, because there's no way of knowing which brother you mean unless you also include the name. "My brother Isaac" becomes like saying "my friend Sam" -- which would only be "my friend, Sam," if you only had one friend. Which would be very sad.

(fun with nonessential elements)

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:54 (8 years ago) Permalink

sam's a pretty cool dude though

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Friday, 1 October 2004 05:56 (8 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, if you're only going to have one friend, you can do worse.

― gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 1 October 2004 06:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

assuming i only have one brother, would it be acceptable to write, "I went with my brother Isaac to the store" or do i have to write, "I went with my brother, Isaac, to the store" ?

'I went to the store with my brother Isaac.'

― Core of Sphagnum (Autumn Almanac), Friday, 1 October 2004 06:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

you could just say "brother Isaac" and sound all mormon

― amateur!!!st (amateurist), Friday, 1 October 2004 12:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

OK, I've just been writing and re-writing this sentence for the last ten minutes:

The evidence for “Americanization” of French culture is mixed, and its extent is impossible to measure, as culture is not easily definable, let alone quantifiable.

Please can you help me arrange it so it sounds better. Most importantly I need a more essay-register way of saying "let alone", but the whole sentence seems really clumsy still and I don't know how to fix it.

I hope there's someone around who can help. My head hurts.

― Cathy (Cathy), Sunday, 28 November 2004 17:59 (8 years ago) Permalink

I always try to split up sentences when they have too many clauses.

Culture is not easily definable, much less quantifiable. Thus, not only is the evidence for "Americanization" of French culture mixed, but its actual extent is impossible to measure.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 28 November 2004 18:08 (8 years ago) Permalink

Perfect! Thanks very much. : ))))))))

― Cathy (Cathy), Sunday, 28 November 2004 18:15 (8 years ago) Permalink

You must use "but also" if you use "not only"

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 28 November 2004 18:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Culture is not easily definable, much less quantifiable; thus, the evidence for "Americanization" of French culture mixed, and its actual extent is impossible to measure."

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 28 November 2004 18:17 (8 years ago) Permalink

(add an "is" before mixed, obv. :P)

the "not only/but" thing is unnecessary

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 28 November 2004 18:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

actually now that I look at it, "it" has an unclear antecedent. It looks like it's saying that the extent of the evidence is immeasurable rather than the extent of "Americanization"

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 28 November 2004 18:20 (8 years ago) Permalink

see, this is why I hate writing essays. And I have two due tomorrow for history >:(

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 28 November 2004 18:20 (8 years ago) Permalink

I think the sentence was perfectly OK in the first place, Cathy.

― Puddin'Head Miller (PJ Miller), Sunday, 28 November 2004 18:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

Don't say that, PJ! It's changed now, and I hope (and think) for the better.

Thanks all.

I just finished my essay, wahey!!

― Cathy (Cathy), Sunday, 28 November 2004 19:27 (8 years ago) Permalink

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 28 November 2004 19:41 (8 years ago) Permalink

I'm running into the same too many ideas/sentence thing in my papers too.

I've decided to switch from a Jan 27, 1997 format to a 27 Jan 1997 format for dates because eliminating the extra comma helps the readability of some of my nastier sentences.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 28 November 2004 20:46 (8 years ago) Permalink

5 months pass...

REVIVE because I need someone to pimp this sentence, which is offensive to hard-core, old-fashioned grammar/usage nazis in more than one place. Winner will have his/her sentence published in an HIV/AIDS glossary famous among dozens.

Here it is: "Although there are many different types of HLA proteins, each person has only a small, relatively unique set that is inherited from their parents."

Thanks much. And, uh, I'm on deadline, so hurry up!

― quincie, Monday, 2 May 2005 17:21 (8 years ago) Permalink

just go with a singular pronoun or the old "his or her" if you're feeling PC.

― Miss Misery (thatgirl), Monday, 2 May 2005 17:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

"His or her parents" is what you want--nothing PC about it.

― The Mad Puffin, Monday, 2 May 2005 17:30 (8 years ago) Permalink

"Although many different types of HLA proteins exist, each person has only a small and realtively unique, inherited set."

― diedre mousedropping (Dave225), Monday, 2 May 2005 17:32 (8 years ago) Permalink

Although there are many different types of HLA proteins, each person inherits only a small and relatively unique subset.

Although there are many different types of HLA proteins, individuals inherit from their parents only a small and relatively unique subset.

etc.

― rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 2 May 2005 17:32 (8 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 3869 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

Different style guides say different things, so in this case, go with what you think will be the clearest construction.

― Ou sont les Sonneywolferines d'antan? (Leee), Saturday, 8 June 2013 19:06 (1 week ago) Permalink

in AP style you add the extra "s" if the next word doesn't begin with "s."

― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 8 June 2013 19:14 (1 week ago) Permalink

Thanks, all...The sentence reads "Moses's best piece of work this term...", so I guess AP would have me go with the one 's'. I'm going to go with "Moses's," though, which just feels right to me (hoping I don't get questioned on it, because I can sometimes get my back up over stuff like that).

― clemenza, Saturday, 8 June 2013 19:20 (1 week ago) Permalink

cheat, write two sentences so that you can say 'moses' in the first and 'his' in the second. they'll love all the extra attention you will have lavished on their lad.

― j., Saturday, 8 June 2013 19:50 (1 week ago) Permalink

iirc OUP style guide and fowler's says moses' (and jesus', odysseus', etc.) for "classical" names, but 's for modern names.

― caek, Monday, 10 June 2013 23:55 (1 week ago) Permalink

that's a ridiculous rule

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 03:07 (1 week ago) Permalink

The way I learned it was that you always put 's on the end, even if you have a name ending in 's'. It's definitely the more logical way to do it, although it's a bit awkward.

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 03:08 (1 week ago) Permalink

The Moses in my class is a good guy, but I'm not sure if he's ready yet to share a rule with Jesus and Odysseus.

― clemenza, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 03:15 (1 week ago) Permalink

Perhaps all people with names ending in "s" should just get the spanish possessive -- "Whose ball is this?" "Es de Jesus"

― i don't even have an internet (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 03:16 (1 week ago) Permalink

if the names ends in an 's,' but you can say it when apostrophized normally, go with the extra 's'.

Along those lines, I've heard that if the sound of the word ends with an S sound, don't put on an extra S. But if the word ends with an S, but doesn't sound like S (Arkansas, Des Moines, debris) all can have an 's.

Which is ridiculous. Our style where I work is no word with S on the end gets an 's.

― pplains, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 04:16 (1 week ago) Permalink

ok i may have been misremembering. fowler's MEU says we wrote things like moses' "formerly" (i.e. before 1913) but it is now (ca. 1913) only retained in verse, which is why i probably associated it with "classical" names.

jesus and moses are basically an unknown first names in the uk. i do enjoy emailing my collaborator in tenerife, and beginning with "dear jesus".

― caek, Tuesday, 11 June 2013 09:33 (1 week ago) Permalink

iirc chicago style gives the same rule, or at least makes it permissible.

― j., Tuesday, 11 June 2013 09:42 (1 week ago) Permalink

last night I saw the Seinfeld where Elaine trips over the possessive of "Onassis"

― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 09:47 (1 week ago) Permalink

― A deeper shade of lol (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 11 June 2013 11:17 (1 week ago) Permalink

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