noughts and crosses is some UK thing, right? I don't think it's a us book.
― I dont even know that I think this sucks per se (forksclovetofu), Sunday, 29 July 2012 14:07 (eleven years ago) link
http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-france/2012/07/31/01016-20120731ARTFIG00471-animateurs-suspendus-pour-avoir-jeune-colere-du-cfcm.php
Four Muslim summer camp workers have been suspended (w/pay) from a camp in Gennevilliers (just north of Paris) for observing Ramadan and not eating or drinking during the day. They claim they specifically did it to open a debate on the subject. Three years ago a Muslim woman working at the camp was involved in a bad car accident that injured some campers including a child. The suspended workers' CDDs (Fixed Term Contracts) specifically state that they must be "properly" fed and hydrated so as to be able to watch over their charges. The mayor of the town, interestingly, is communist. The CFCM, the French national Muslim association, has announced it's going to sue on the grounds of discrimination.
― sive gallus et mulier (Michael White), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 15:55 (eleven years ago) link
france
― joaquin haus-partizan (s1ocki), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 16:00 (eleven years ago) link
How laconic
― sive gallus et mulier (Michael White), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 16:21 (eleven years ago) link
Three years ago a Muslim woman working at the camp who was fasting for Ramadan was involved in a bad car accident that injured some campers including a child.
― sive gallus et mulier (Michael White), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 16:23 (eleven years ago) link
France is so fucking racist
― where can i get a mcdonalds quesadilla tho (silby), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 23:39 (eleven years ago) link
b-b-but they love Miles Davis
― mind your business lady (D-40), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 23:41 (eleven years ago) link
^^^
― giallo pudding pops (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 31 July 2012 23:47 (eleven years ago) link
all their anti-muslim shit is deplorable
france, like pretty much any country, has a lot of shitty racist tendencies and laws but this case...i dunno. looks like they're willfully breaking their contract and they're being suspended WITH PAY so...
― k3vin k., Wednesday, 1 August 2012 00:56 (eleven years ago) link
i think being properly fed and hydrated is such basic common sense in regards to child care that it shouldn't even have to be a written requirement. can imagine these cranky, dizzy counselors marching a bunch of kids around in the sun all day.
― how's life, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 09:48 (eleven years ago) link
what relevance does the mayor being a communist have?
― how's life, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 09:52 (eleven years ago) link
are there a lot of communists in france? seems a weird thing to be.
― how's life, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 09:54 (eleven years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 10:17 (eleven years ago) link
Four facilitators have been suspended after the visit of an official of the City Hall in a holiday centre in the city to Port of Albret (Landes) on July 20, the first day of ramadan. They had to leave the next day but their wages continued to be paid. The Town Hall had hired them in CSD for a stay in Port, in the Landes, started on 5 July.
It appears to be a city-run camp.
― how's life, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 10:35 (eleven years ago) link
Nurses, doctors, etc, etc who happen to be Muslim seem to manage. It sounds like the contract has been specifically designed to stop them fasting. That would need some serious justification.
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 10:48 (eleven years ago) link
Yeah, being a doctor or a nurse is nowhere near as physically active as being a camp counselor.
― how's life, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 11:20 (eleven years ago) link
Ha! Tell that to a nurse. Some (not all) pro athletes fast. Working at a day camp might be tough but there are any number of physically challenging jobs that people manage fine with. Unless there's a really strong reason for prohibiting it, it's difficult to see a justification.
― Temporarily Famous In The Czech Republic (ShariVari), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 11:44 (eleven years ago) link
its well known that all muslim countries shut down all camps schools and daycare during ramadan
― max, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 11:48 (eleven years ago) link
one big reason why muslims have never run a successful civilization is that theyve always been too tired to have successful daycamps
― max, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 11:49 (eleven years ago) link
I thought muslim countries for the most part shut down during Ramadan. You're supposed to pray all day, right? Guess that's not fully the case? Still, it's the kind of thing where as someone in charge of a child, you should be able to take care of yourself to make sure that you're able to respond optimally to whatever situation may arise.
http://tapestryofgrace.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/oxygen-mask.jpg
― how's life, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 12:12 (eleven years ago) link
theres a famous verse in the koran -- "No matter what, you have to fast, dawn till dusk. Literally, no exceptions."
― max, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:43 (eleven years ago) link
you can fast while taking care of kids fwiw
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:46 (eleven years ago) link
no... pretty sure you cant
― max, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:47 (eleven years ago) link
― how's life, Wednesday, August 1, 2012 6:20 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
o rly
― catbus otm (gbx), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:48 (eleven years ago) link
every year in muslims countries thousands of childrens die at the hands of fasting caretakers
― max, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:48 (eleven years ago) link
ortho jewish day camps pretty much shut down all activities during the two summer fast days - u def don't want your lifeguard in the middle of a fast
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:48 (eleven years ago) link
anyway, france has kind of a pattern when it comes to this kind of thing...hard to take the camp at its word.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:49 (eleven years ago) link
i don't think it's inconceivable that a person might be rendered incapable of working during ramadan, but most muslims who fast, especially in non-muslims countries, work for a month fasting every year. you get used to it.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:51 (eleven years ago) link
u def don't want your lifeguard in the middle of a fast
i thought eating before swimming was dangerous
― ledge, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:51 (eleven years ago) link
i feel like it would be really hard to know if the fasting woman got in a car accident because she was fasting or just because people get into car accidents sometimes. i would be interested in hearing more details about that. i have driven while fasting so many times y'all.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:52 (eleven years ago) link
but were you driving fast?
― ledge, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:53 (eleven years ago) link
*rimshot*
― Nhex, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:54 (eleven years ago) link
this is straying from the point but the hardest thing about ramadan as an adult is caffeine restriction if you're an addict like me. the no food from dawn to dusk thing is cake in comparison.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:55 (eleven years ago) link
Coffee cake?
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:55 (eleven years ago) link
I just watched a biking documentary where one guy in the desert made breakfast like this: One gas station cherry pie, sprinkled with coffee grounds. That could be you!
― check the name, no caps, boom, i'm (Laurel), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:56 (eleven years ago) link
also, a dawn to dusk fast is significantly less debilitating than a 24 hour fast
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 13:57 (eleven years ago) link
i'd be more concerned about the health, esp related to hydration, of anyone fasting while working at a camp than i'd be concerned about the children
to be completely honest, sometimes i have thought ramadan-in-its-full-devotional-dimension is not completely compatible with modern lives/economies. in muslim countries, stuff does tend to shut down during the day during ramadan and sometimes i wonder how that's economically feasible, but i don't know the particulars in much detail. (also the idea of an order where people don't have to work for a month seems kind of awesome to me, but that's neither here nor there.) in non-muslim countries, muslims fast all month and do their work. i used to be one of those muslims and i never had a problem.
xp it's really fine. you hydrate a lot before dawn and when you break you fast at dusk.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:00 (eleven years ago) link
speaking as someone who worked at camps during fast days, even if you hydrate before dawn and after dusk you're still being exposed to very hot weather that really necessitates hydration throughout the day. this is why, i believe, ortho camps do indoor movie watching type stuff on fast days and not regularly scheduled sports/outdoors/swimming/hiking type programming
― Mordy, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:02 (eleven years ago) link
yeah, i mean, i worked in a camp this summer and it is hard for me to imagine not drinking water all day, but i don't know. maybe this is wack faux-biology on my part, but i feel like fasting for a month, your body kind of re-adjusts and regulates itself differently.
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:04 (eleven years ago) link
I'll admit that I was sorta shocked when I learned that anothe, Muslim, student had scheduled his board exam at the end of Ramadan. Like, dude, it's high summer and you're studying with no brain sugar. But he told me that you just get used to it.
Also loads of ppl in the world do what Muslims do on the reg, without thinking about it: coffee/snack in the morning, skip lunch, go home and eat dinner.
― catbus otm (gbx), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:13 (eleven years ago) link
my dad has practiced pediatrics his entire professional life fasting during ramadan. will no one think of the misdiagnosed children?
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:16 (eleven years ago) link
kidding! he's not misdiagnosing children, guys, i promise!
― horseshoe, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:20 (eleven years ago) link
He's not a Catholic trying to keep France 'European'. He's a secularist trying to lessen the influence of religion on public law and behavior. If you know about the Lois Ferry (the Ferry Laws) of 1881 which made education obligatory, free and, in the case of public education, secular, and the firestorm they have always sparked on the French Right, you can see the context here. Communists in France are occasionally demagogues when it comes to race and culture but they're not the FN or the Action française and generally, they predictably downplay traditional culture(s) and identity in preference to class identity.
― sive gallus et mulier (Michael White), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:23 (eleven years ago) link
They should also bar Type-II diabetics from working in children's camps.
― pplains, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:29 (eleven years ago) link
It's a context that has often made me get in massive arguments with French leftists about what I would call 'First Amendment' rights. Having a rooted national culture in a way that we do not (despite WASP hegemony), one that precedes rational ideology and professes loyalty not so much to ideals as racial, even local custom, and to Catholicism ('The eldest daughter of the Church', Pepin as savior of the Papacy, etc...), secular French leftists are far more suspicious of individual religious autonomy than Americans are. Religion has been a huge thorn in the side of France for centuries.
― sive gallus et mulier (Michael White), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:30 (eleven years ago) link
What I find interesting about this whole kerfuffle is that the camp workers seem to have provoked the whole thing. It's as if they're saying, "We're here. We're Muslim. Get used to it!"
― sive gallus et mulier (Michael White), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:31 (eleven years ago) link
I guess maybe that rhymes in French?
― pplains, Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:32 (eleven years ago) link
ban vegans from camp counseling
― smells like ok (soda) (dayo), Wednesday, 1 August 2012 14:34 (eleven years ago) link