New Burial album. More info?

...I like the style council

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No, that article was actually entire off the mark! But then K-Punk has never been shy about making sweeping pronouncements based on a dearth of evidence! I remember reading it at the time and being utterly puzzled. At first I thought he must have just listened to a bad compilation, but have you seen the tracklisting for that comp?? It totally sounds nothing like the way he describes it! Tellingly, Mark doesn't actually refer to a single bad track in the entire article. I think he just imagines all these bad 2-step trakcs and proceeds to skewer them for their hypothetical flaws. Which is a very convenient argumentative strategy.

The article is partially correct in that there was a massive overload of perfunctory remixes of US r&b tracks floating around in 2001, and this meant that you were perhaps more likely to stumble across boring tracks than previously. But if you look at the best tracks of that year garage was almost as strong as in 1999-2000, I'd say. And while I liked both So Solid Crew/K2 Family/Pay As U Go etc. and Horsepower Productions/El-B at the time, even had the proto-grime and proto-dubstep not been around it still would have been a thrilling year, thanks to stuff by Sticky, Ed Case, Zed Bias, DND, Masterstepz, Bump & Flex. Crucially though, all the dubstep was definitely a more gentrified version of 2-step than any actual normal 2-step was!

The funny thing about the notion of a generational split between soulful garage and dark garage/proto-grime is that for the most part the "soulful garage" movement was imaginary. The standard-bearer for this movement was supposed to be TJ Cases, owing to his gorgeous 2000 track "Dedicated To Love". But actually listen to Cases' 2001 productions "One By One" and "I Like To Cut, I Like To Play" - yes, they still have divas, but they're some of the roughest 2-step tracks you'll hear, the basslines and beats on those tracks are simply slamming (they're like the Eric Morillo of 2-step, maybe).

Pick up any random 2-step compilation from that time and you'll find a remarkable dearth of soulful garage tracks. What you will find are the following:

- lots of good stuff that sounds like 2000 garage except the beats got even screwier
- some good breakbeat garage tracks and then a fair few bad ones
- quite a few jolly MC tracks
- a few uninspiring remixes of US R&B tracks (although these struggled to make it onto the good compilations - whereas even the best DJs seemed to have a weakness for at least one bad breakbeat garage track)
- Mike Dunn's "God Made Me Phunky"

... Which leads me to conclude that the only people who can seriously think that garage in 2001 was gentrified are people who only bought the artist albums from Wookie, MJ Cole and the Artful Dodger.

A bit like trying to summarise jungle circa 1996 based on Logical Progression alone.

One other point to note perhaps is that garage producers did become less inclined to fuck with and cut up the vocals, and instead let them run largely unmolested throughout the track. But while this is partly due to a stronger alignment with R&B/hip hop (away from house and its more tenuous relationship to songfulness), there was another good reason for it: as the tracks became harder and rougher in their production, and the amount of MC'ing escalated massively, having a full female vocal became an important counterweight - by 2001 the pop-diva was assuming a much greater share in maintaining the femininity of the genre, as the music's house roots became less obviously apparent.

I wrote a great deal more about why 2001 was a great year for garage here if you're interested.

"They may not be the 'embarassing' elements that fit your theory Tim but this album feels crammed with cheesiness, via its over the top emotion, r&b samples etc"

Yeah I'm pleased that he's fucking with vocals more. But Burial's over-the-top emotion (which I also like) is closer to corny indie fuxxiness than it is to cheesiness. It's DJ Shadow cheesy rather than Will Smith cheesy.

'Raver' in my head on loop today. Reminds me of Luomo and Akufen stuff more than anything else.

"The funny thing about the notion of a generational split between soulful garage and dark garage/proto-grime is that for the most part the "soulful garage" movement was imaginary.

-- Tim F"

no way, don't you remember the sudden influx of 4 on the floor housey type garage in 01? EZ's record, Tuff Jam's stuff from that time, Qualifide, etc etc. by the end of that year i was buying almost as much 4 on the floor stuff as jams with the 2-steppy beat no matter which end of the split it was on. a bunch of the deejays (iirc it was dream team and some other cats) decided to start playing more soulful, it didnt catch the media hype perhaps but it was a definite part of the movement that led to the path to funky house being an urban UK thing.

"'Raver' in my head on loop today. Reminds me of Luomo and Akufen stuff more than anything else.

-- blueski"

sounds to me almost like pepe braddock's "burning" done in a "cheval" stylee. very pepe.

"no way, don't you remember the sudden influx of 4 on the floor housey type garage in 01? EZ's record, Tuff Jam's stuff from that time, Qualifide, etc etc. by the end of that year i was buying almost as much 4 on the floor stuff as jams with the 2-steppy beat no matter which end of the split it was on. a bunch of the deejays (iirc it was dream team and some other cats) decided to start playing more soulful, it didnt catch the media hype perhaps but it was a definite part of the movement that led to the path to funky house being an urban UK thing."

This movement was pretty small in 2001 though, and didn't really heat up until 2-step started transforming into grime over the course of 2002 (with "Pulse X" etc.). I was trying to obliquely reference it with my mention of Mike Dunn. Even The Dreem Teem were somewhat half-hearted about it, it seemed a bigger deal than it was because of the controversy over So Solid Crew and generational change.

In fact, 4X4 garage wasn't suddenly revived in 2001, this was happening in 2000 as well - remember tunes like Zack Toms' "Bring Me Down", Wideboys' "Westside" and "Stand & Deliver", Dominic B's "Going Round"... As for Tuff Jam, did they ever really change their sound from speed garage in the first place? Matt Lamont didn't even really start making 2-step beats until 2001! And his best 4X4 stuff from 2001/2002 was with El-B!

Not to mention the fact that the 4X4 was revived in the hard 'n' dark end of the scene as well - DJ Narrows for example, and let's not forget Blazing Squad's first hit before they became a boy band (esp. great with Elephant Man on the vocals).

So yeah there was a rise in 4/4 stuff around this time, but I think this development was more about a general nostalgia for speed garage (in both its soulful and ruff forms) than a desire to gentrify 2-step.

I reckon the Cyrus album is better than Untrue. There. Do I win £5?

even when he's arguing w/ 'pipecock' i'd rather read Tim's writing than 90% of ilx

You got that right.

i caught most of this thread after the fireworks, but here are some thoughts.

if burial made a hardcore record, would that turn the continuum into a loop? it reminds me of MT's comment that nothing ever really changes.

what do people think of the skull disco comp?

breaks-based music exhausted itself for me awhile back, but i love the way it sounds in cassy's panorama bar mix i.e., it creates such a nice tension and hypes up the mix without sounding forced.

i don't buy the genius theory because it's too close to fundamentalism and art is way more dirty than that.

"what do people think of the skull disco comp?"

bores me to tears.

"breaks-based music exhausted itself for me awhile back, but i love the way it sounds in cassy's panorama bar mix i.e., it creates such a nice tension and hypes up the mix without sounding forced."

i like music with sampled drums in general, but in terms of a "break" sounding sampled drum beat, im really feeling carl craig's remix of tony allen.

"i don't buy the genius theory because it's too close to fundamentalism and art is way more dirty than that.

-- tricky"

how exactly is it close to fundamentalism? how is music something other than an artist expressing himself?

"how exactly is it close to fundamentalism? how is music something other than an artist expressing himself?"

Haha howzabout a million ways.

xpost, well, that's exactly it. i mean, what else is there to say if all you say is "how is music something other than an artist expressing himself?". i am very sympathetic to that view, but for me it is a jumping off point. it's like conflating effects with causes because at the end music is a very personal experience that everyone experiences a little bit differently. that's one of the reasons why we are here on this board i'd imagine.

i love CC's "straight mix" of tony allen. the subtle changes and brokenness in the breaks from bar to bar is so elegant!

the thing i don't get about pipecock is its not just that he's saying "the best way to understand art is as an expression of an artist" but that "the ONLY way to understand art is as an expression of the artist," like he seems totally unaware that there is an art to reception

"This movement was pretty small in 2001 though, and didn't really heat up until 2-step started transforming into grime over the course of 2002 (with "Pulse X" etc.). I was trying to obliquely reference it with my mention of Mike Dunn. Even The Dreem Teem were somewhat half-hearted about it, it seemed a bigger deal than it was because of the controversy over So Solid Crew and generational change."

i mean, the seeds of grime were already heavily present in 01, as were the seeds of dubstep and the 4 on the floor revolution. "battle of the mc's", "envy", etc were all sort of the almost hiphop tracks over a tough garage beat.

"In fact, 4X4 garage wasn't suddenly revived in 2001, this was happening in 2000 as well - remember tunes like Zack Toms' "Bring Me Down", Wideboys' "Westside" and "Stand & Deliver", Dominic B's "Going Round"... As for Tuff Jam, did they ever really change their sound from speed garage in the first place? Matt Lamont didn't even really start making 2-step beats until 2001! And his best 4X4 stuff from 2001/2002 was with El-B!"

yeah, the El-Tuff stuff (which was what i meant when i said "tuff jam", crack rules) was super ill, but it was definitely part of a larger movement towards that sound. i guess none of these subgenres was really established in 01, but that was when the initial tensions that led to their separation really began.

"Not to mention the fact that the 4X4 was revived in the hard 'n' dark end of the scene as well - DJ Narrows for example, and let's not forget Blazing Squad's first hit before they became a boy band (esp. great with Elephant Man on the vocals)."

sure, narrows and stuff like some of the 4 on the floor harry lime stuff was on the darkside, but i think they were kind of on the very fringes of what would be the usual "2-step scene" in general, even though some of the tunes crossed over ("grouch", "saved soul", etc) into the more mainstream 2-step world.

"So yeah there was a rise in 4/4 stuff around this time, but I think this development was more about a general nostalgia for speed garage (in both its soulful and ruff forms) than a desire to gentrify 2-step.

-- Tim F"

the thing that i think differentiates the 4 on the floor stuff from speed garage is the basslines, the 01 era stuff didnt have the dread bass lines almost at all, it was much more bouncy and house oriented. i dont think it was an effort to "gentrify" 2-step, on the contrary it was more like a "going back to our roots to rediscover our identity" movement.

"the thing i don't get about pipecock is its not just that he's saying "the best way to understand art is as an expression of an artist" but that "the ONLY way to understand art is as an expression of the artist," like he seems totally unaware that there is an art to reception

-- deej"

but the reception is where all the flaws in the communication come in. if you enjoy trying to converse with someone in a foreign language without understanding what theyre saying just because it sounds nice to your ears, i guess that works for you. i prefer to understand the language.

that only works if you conceive of music as a method of communication

or as a language w/ a relatively fixed syntax and semantics and etc etc etc

or that you can't understand english and yet have no clue what someone is saying (cf pipecock)

sorry, can undersand english

hahaha yeah srsly pipecock you are about the last person in the world who should be lecturing anyone on "communication"

"that only works if you conceive of music as a method of communication

-- max"

hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

"or as a language w/ a relatively fixed syntax and semantics and etc etc etc

or that you can't understand english and yet have no clue what someone is saying (cf pipecock)

-- moonship journey to baja"

it is not fixed in any way, thats why it is not easy!

you guys would be funny if you weren't so stupid.

sorry, pretending you're smart/condescending doesnt make it so

"sorry, pretending you're smart/condescending doesnt make it so

-- deej"

maybe i can pretend to be a cool ilxor type who doesnt know shit, then everyone would like me? hahahahahahaha. really, i cant believe some of the things that people say. music is not a form of communication? come on, that is literally the most retarded thing ive ever heard anyone say on any music forum ever, and that is saying a lot. how can you possibly be that retarded? how?

sigh.

"sigh.

-- max"

is trying to use your brain making you tired? you might wanna go ahead and give up, i dont think it will do any good.

"flaws in the reception"

""flaws in the reception"

-- moonship journey to baja"

there are some serious flaws in your reception of basically everything from what i can tell, i guess it shouldnt be surprising that it would extend to music.

You are a bot, right?

"You are a bot, right?

-- Ned Raggett"

yeah a "you guys are fucking stupid" bot.

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im trying to stay on your level so you can actually understand the pictures i post!

http://www.sakebomb.com/news/images/jeffandshit.jpg

Or you can't actually think of anything more sophisticated than balls and shit because you're a backward farmhand?

i'm pretty sure deej is talking about me

;_:

i'm pretty sure deej is talking about me ilx

We are all ilx.

http://www.allhatnocattle.net/Hands%20Joining%20the%20World1.jpg

* Go to Google Images
* type in : burial untrue review
without quotes
* look at first pic

hahaha

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/7/img/An%20activist%20shouts%20as%20he%20is%20arrested%20by%20Israeli%20policemen%20during%20a%20demonstration.jpg

The source of that pic is far more serious and completely out of context (just based on the pic name), despite it being used by a blogger to just go "pitchfork be dry lol"

ilm was always going to implode like this

"Or you can't actually think of anything more sophisticated than balls and shit because you're a backward farmhand?

-- jim"

yeah, thats probably it. i need to get out to milking your mom, now.

http://www2.b3ta.com/images/tailpipe.jpg

goddamn it. i swear i only think "tailpipe.jpg? wtf is that" when i'm at work

dude has a look on his face. neither satisfied nor unsatisfied.