^ i think it was the article you posted that framed it this way to begin w/
― akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 23:40 (eleven years ago) link
i dunno about houses in general, but i think buying all of michigan would be a good investment.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 23:41 (eleven years ago) link
revive was worth it for the grampsy appearance
― akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 23:44 (eleven years ago) link
xp Stop saying that! Don't give anyone ideas.
― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 23:56 (eleven years ago) link
too late i bought michigan
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 00:18 (eleven years ago) link
Ill give you five bucks for it
― dayo, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 00:22 (eleven years ago) link
Live in the UP, rent out the rest.
― nickn, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 00:23 (eleven years ago) link
too late sold up to wisconsin
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 00:25 (eleven years ago) link
real estate is not an investment. your house is not going to turn into an ipad factory, it's going to turn into a worse house. and the 'leverage' that you are using is 'leverage' in the same way that a credit card is 'leverage'. and while you are losing risk in terms of 'where will I live' and 'how much will I pay per month', it comes at an enormous price.
gross generalization dude, it depends on the property, the location, and the timing.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:15 (eleven years ago) link
ya I guess if you live in china, 5 years ago, your house might turn into an ipad factoryy
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:16 (eleven years ago) link
nah, real estate is like many other investments, if you had the good fortune to buy at the right place at the right time, you could have done/could do very well financially.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:20 (eleven years ago) link
sometimes property can be *speculative*, you can bet that your neighborhood is gonna get all cool and maybe you'd make some money if that happened then you sold your house. or if you are a carpenter and add another floor to your house, suddenly that's an investment. but just taking out a huge loan to buy a depreciating object that you get to live in isn't an 'investment' anymore than your car is.
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:20 (eleven years ago) link
you own the land the house is on though (unless you buy a condo), and land doesn't depreciate.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:21 (eleven years ago) link
'if you had to fortune to put your chips on the right number at the right time' suddenly vegas becomes a great investment opportunity too
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:22 (eleven years ago) link
yes, but land is worth more than plastic chips.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:22 (eleven years ago) link
and let's say you bought a house that is affordable to you, with a 30 year mortgage, and you paid it off, and you continued to live there after those years -- your housing costs are nominal at that point, unless your property taxes get jacked up.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:26 (eleven years ago) link
no land is worth what land is worth and plastic chips are worth what plastic chips are worth, and both of their value depends on the demand for that land or for those plastic chips. and enough plastic chips or paper bills are 'worth more' than lots of land is 'worth'. if you want to bet on the future demand for various types of land then you're still not 'investing' anymore than you are when you buy gold, but yes you can 'make money'.
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:27 (eleven years ago) link
lol @ iatee sticking to his guns so damn hard that he has to put scare quote around 'make money' to make it fit his argument
― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:29 (eleven years ago) link
if you want to bet on the future demand for various types of land then you're still not 'investing' anymore than you are when you buy gold
people buy gold as an investment. people buy land as an investment. yes.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:29 (eleven years ago) link
let's say that instead of saving money 'in your house' you saved money 'out of your house', then 30 years from now you would have that same money, and you could buy a house if you wanted xp
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:30 (eleven years ago) link
ideally, from a financial health perspective you would be doing both. home ownership isn't a problem, it's people spending too much money (relatively-speaking) on houses that's the problem.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:31 (eleven years ago) link
home ownership isn't a problem, it's useful for some people in some situations, it's just not something we need to encourage w/ massive tax breaks
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:32 (eleven years ago) link
are you talking about first time homebuyers credits, mortgage interest deductions, exemptions from early withdrawal penalties for IRAs ??? something new?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:34 (eleven years ago) link
i think we just need to find a way to make sure that the land speculated on will rise in value
http://www.sidekickcomicsuk.com/blogs/media/blogs/sidekick//genelex.jpg
― Legendary General Cypher Raige (Gukbe), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:34 (eleven years ago) link
man, where is my realtor? i want to find out where my "massive tax breaks" went when i bought my house.
― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:35 (eleven years ago) link
why would I not be talking about any of those
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:35 (eleven years ago) link
xp
jon you should have sarah do your taxes maybe
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:36 (eleven years ago) link
the mortgage interest deduction is interesting from a historical perspective - like, it's still around, whereas deductions for interest on car loans and personal credit cards all went away with that 1986 tax bill, that I'm blanking on the name of atm
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:37 (eleven years ago) link
I think the solution is really to just kill off anyone that owns a car, then kill off people that own land, then move everyone else into iatee's building and he might be happy.
― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:41 (eleven years ago) link
the thing that make real estate a bad investment isnt really its rate of return + other ancillary benefits which could be good or bad depending its that its illiquid and undiversified
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:45 (eleven years ago) link
unless you own a lot of it, in different areas and of different types
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:49 (eleven years ago) link
right, so if you are a real estate company it becomes an investment
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:50 (eleven years ago) link
right those problems refer to people who buy a single house to live in it, not like real estate companies or w/e
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:52 (eleven years ago) link
tho tbf real estate investment is a p dicey business too
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:55 (eleven years ago) link
well, it also depends on the function of the investment. Like it should be considered a long-term investment - like, you buy it when you're young and live in it until you die or have to go to the nursing home. but as someone pointed out upthread, i think it was jon, houses can also be used for temporary cash flow problems, like the person starting a business.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:57 (eleven years ago) link
another thing that can be used for temporary cash flow problems is almost any other investment that the money would otherwise be in
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:58 (eleven years ago) link
and man, let me tell you, if you have a profitable business and do some of the work out of a home you own, the tax benefits are really enviable.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 03:59 (eleven years ago) link
xp - uh, taking money out of an IRA or an employer retirement plan before you reach retirement age is a bad idea, the penalties are higher than mortgage interest rates.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:00 (eleven years ago) link
selling stock is a much easier and cheaper than refinancing yr house
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:00 (eleven years ago) link
if that stock is in a standard brokerage account and not in an IRA or other retirement savings account (which is where most people put their savings), then yes, you are right.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:01 (eleven years ago) link
yes, that's why I said "almost"
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:01 (eleven years ago) link
yes, but that's a minority of investments, as far as the American public is concerned!
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:04 (eleven years ago) link
'this is what the american public thinks' is, if anything, a good way to argue against an idea
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:05 (eleven years ago) link
would be curious to see a break down on penalties paid on withdrawing ira funds early v interest paid on 2nd mortgages, nah no i woulndt n/m just kill me now
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:08 (eleven years ago) link
I'm not saying that that's what they think, I am saying that the majority of Americans who have money investment in stocks, bonds, etc. have it invested through retirement plans that carry significant penalties (10% federal, some states assess penalties as well, California's penalty is 2.5%) for taking money out early.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:09 (eleven years ago) link
that only on the earnings tho, not the principal
― lag∞n, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:10 (eleven years ago) link
?
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:11 (eleven years ago) link
rule of thumb: if you get a tax deduction/reduction for putting it into the account, it is taxable coming out (and subject to penalties for being taken out early)
― sarahell, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:12 (eleven years ago) link
a. there are other ways to save money, whether or not they are currently the norm b. upthread there was evidence that people who own houses are less likely to start a business, so the fact that we are talking about how great it is that you can take money out of your house to start a business is like some ouroboros argument
― iatee, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 04:15 (eleven years ago) link