Is this the Juno thread?

There are websites.
-- jaymc

there are probably better things to waste time with.
-- jaymc

Like I said.

A local mag here has a diaslogue between two critics on what the film means re "the commodification of indie."

I hope to God this dialogue was published no later than 1995.

http://thelmagazine.com/6/2/musicology/feature1.cfm?ctype=2

See what yr missin, bro?

As far as I’m concerned, and I think this might be an unpopular opinion, I’ve always taken the stance that “indie” is, in fact, an aesthetic sensibility. And what’s so striking about Juno is that they straight-up fucking mangled that shit in the film, with all the retardo dialogue, yet they managed to nail it on the soundtrack.

Indie's been commodified for a long time, but it's really only been in the last few years that you have things like Sub Pop albums debuting in the top 5 on Billboard.

There is no indie, never has been.

We are all boutique labels now.

Indie's been commodified for a long time, but it's really only been in the last few years that you have things like Sub Pop albums debuting in the top 5 on Billboard.

This may have less to do with an increase in sales of SubPop albums than with an overal decrease in sales of everything.

decrease in sales of everything except subpop records? check yr math

i mean, i know what you mean, but still

http://thelmagazine.com/6/2/musicology/feature1.cfm?ctype=2

lolololol

I’m afraid the backlash against things like Juno or the fucking Decemberists is causing people to abandon the ideals we’ve all grown up with, possibly just for the sake of being contrarians.

rofl

Yeah I chuckled at that line too.

it's not the 'commodification of indie' that bothers me, and wtf does that even mean anyway, i am so tired of this kind of talk, i mean jesus everything's commodified, we live in a state of constant exchange and skewed value assignments boohoohoo everything's for sale even yr childhood ohno.

how precious is this 'indie aesthetic' and, wait, is it really all that groundbreaking anyway? are they really among your favourite personal-world-shattering movies, these movies? yeah, say anything affected me bigtime when i was 18 but like die hard has arguably made a bigger impact on me. tell me your story whatever story it is, but tell me it to me with conviction and integrity and sure certainly homage to what's come before but give me something new to love and be inspired by and do new things because of.

maybe what i'm getting at is that there are a thousandx20 novels just like this, quiet little stories written by people with moderate but unexciting talent. some of them sell big, some don't, some are praised and declared 'beautifully written' and some are ignored. i think the word we really want here isn't 'commodification' - too common, too abstract, there's a reason why only 18-21 yr olds get excited by adbusters - but a word that means 'insular' and 'accepting' and 'docile' and ultimately 'boring.'

yes, i love love too and i love familiar comforts but i'm upset by insularity and self-imploding little worlds, i guess, these days. these stories are the reason i can't read past page 3 of most novels these days and why i feel the way i do abt this movie - but i've stopped feeling guilty about that because obviously what i'm looking for is a promise for something more. i'm glad you wrote a book, i'm glad you made a movie, but still it hurts me and it's forgettable. maybe because i want everything to be a little part of some kind of revolution.

i'm being a bit harsh. but a movie that had the bones or the chops or whatever to be insightful and thought-provoking but turned out to be mediocre quirky entertainment is somehow more disappointing to me than all the pointless crappy movies i'll never see this year. and while this movie is still not as sad/disheartening/depressing as idiocracy, it gets to me in a similar way. and i guess it's allegorical. all the opportunities to do something great and if not revolutionary at least evolutionary, but instead it takes the easy way out. these happy endings are the saddest/most frustrating freakin thing.

and also geez the most saleable of the new and the different have always been popularized, how is this surprising - i even think it's a good thing in some ways b/c it can have positive consequences, esp if you're not constantly on the lookout for the new and different. i mean, not all big-budget/big-studio movies (music, art, etc) are without depth and insight, and not all underground films (music, art, etc) are brilliant and shocking the world into change.

i just want to be shown the world in different/surprising ways

that's all!

and also geez the most saleable of the new and the different have always been popularized

"always" is a long time. Was Lenny Bruce 'saleable' in 1961? Velvets in '68?

but a movie that had the bones or the chops or whatever to be insightful and thought-provoking but turned out to be mediocre quirky entertainment is somehow more disappointing to me than all the pointless crappy movies i'll never see this year.

Really? Juno had the chops to be insightful and thought-provoking? It was fluff. I thought it was very well-done fluff, and I'll defend it to the end on that level, but I think you're being pretty unfair to the film if you were looking for more. That's why its Oscar noms in categories other than screenplay are so bizarre, but of course I'd have said the same thing about Little Miss Sunshine last year.

why the hell would i not look for more in anything? i have become unfair like that

always is a long time

the only thing to do is not pay attention to it

first half - flat and unreliable (the scene where juno tells her parents bout her pregnancy and their reaction for example)
2nd half - great! (juno's learning the balanced way of looking at life)

I just saw this, I thought it was okay, but not mind-blowing. I agree with most of the people that the oversaturation with twee indie songs was very annoying. And there was a bit too much of "quirky" dialogue, if it was used more sparingly it would've flowed better, now it felt at times like the scriptwriter was just trying to draw attention to her impressive dialogue-writing skills, which was a bit irritating. Juno felt like like a teen movie not aimed at teens rather adults who wished they would've been as witty as Juno as kids. I agree with Jaymc's initial comment that it was sort of fantasy-fulfillment film, but the problem was that because of this the teen bits worked on a rather superficial level, and unlike Ghost World (Juno's closest relative, I think) didn't have that much to say about actual teenage experiences. I guess it's not surprising then that the adult characters were actually the most interesting and rounded ones, because they weren't about fantasy. I would've loved to see more of Juno's dad especially, and like people have noted, the dynamic between the adoptive couple, and the sympathy-reversal between them, was well done too.

About the adoption thing: I don't think the movie was either pro-life or pro-choice. Like most other Hollwyood films these days Juno sorta side-stepped the whole issue, I guess because movie-makers don't want to anger any possible viewers. In these sort of films abortion is usually presented as an option, so they wouldn't appear conservative and piss off the liberals, but then female character never has it anyway. They always go to the adoption clinic, but then run away at the last moment! I can't remember when I last saw someone actually have an abortion in an Hollywood movie, even movies where teens get pregnant it never seems to happen. I think it's kinda weak.

it was funny how the step mother tried to analyze the future-might-be-problems of the adoption choice to that nurse, as if the writers were trying to defends their choice to the audience,saying:hey,this isnt an easy solution as you might think.that was superfluous

That was weird scene; I think the movie-makers wanted the audience to side with the step-mom, but she came off as totally obnoxious, where as the nurse was just making sense.

daer tuomas,

it is not 'weak' to choose birth/adoption endings over abortion endings in teen movies, because teen abortions are pretty huge bummers no matter how you look at them.

here's a happy little comedy that ends with a depressed teen straddling the toilet and crying into a wad of toilet paper

or a slice-of-life drama in which a girl chooses college over motherhood and stoically takes a pill before going out drinking with her friends

the end half of the movie is way better,cause the writers don't try to force the story on you and making it unreliable.as a matter of fact the story on the first half reminded me of yet another episode of yet another american tv series,except from the strong "indie" film.

the second half i mean

btw,kill me but i love kimya dawson.
how can't you as a beat happening fan?!

"It was interesting how we sided with the male yuppie at first and the woman seemed obsessive and anal until it switches and we come to see that she really wants this kid and the guy is a selfish prick.
"

yeah, that was the most powerfull event of the movie.
the relationship between Juno and the will be stepfather are interesting and are the main reason the 2nd half comes as great as it does.
both of them change, for the good and for the bad, from the unspoken attraction that they share,juno realize that nothing's perfect, and that what might seem to be a good thing on first impression doesnt always comes off so good when you look deeper inside.
on a way, maybe without being aware of it,she tested the ex-hipster guy, and he failed the test.
than,and after the father "fixer" words about true love, she can go back to the tic-tac kid and stick to what shes as long as it's good, knowing it may not last.those were great script moments imo.
i mean,growing up is alot about losing your ideals,in a good way.

I told ya that Jennifer Garner's terrific.

i didnt like her.
Cera was great though

which makes no sense! You don't believe her situation if she's not convincing.

i just think her character could be better casted.
i can see the point of the writers, thats enough to understand.

I don't really understand what this movie has in common w/Ghost World other than sassy lil lassy as central figure

And others have complained that the Moldy Peaches and Kimya Dawson are has-beens.

Pretty sure they're 'never-weres.'

i think the word we really want here isn't 'commodification' - too common, too abstract, there's a reason why only 18-21 yr olds get excited by adbusters - but a word that means 'insular' and 'accepting' and 'docile' and ultimately 'boring.'

Homogenized?

daer tuomas,

it is not 'weak' to choose birth/adoption endings over abortion endings in teen movies, because teen abortions are pretty huge bummers no matter how you look at them.

Er, what? Do you really think keeping the baby or having it and then giving it adopted is always a better choice? If you do, why? Because I know couple of girls who've had an abortion at an early age, and let me tell you, it was much less of a bummer than the alternatives would've been.

To make it clear, I'm not just criticizing Juno (obviously if she'd had an abortion it would've been a totally different movie) but the trend in American movies that abortion is simply something that never happens, even though it does in real life. I can't help but think this is because American movie-makers don't want to upset any potential section of the audience.

'insular' and 'accepting' and 'docile' and ultimately 'boring

I've been getting a lot of mileage out of "insipid"

although for the purposes of this thread "jejune" could perhaps provide a greater lol

Do you really think keeping the baby or having it and then giving it adopted is always a better choice

The problem with your sentence is "always."

Well, that's what Remy seemed to be implying. I'm sorry if I got that wrong.

I saw a trailer for this, and now wild horses could not drag me to the film, as it seems to consist of loads of teenagers with annoying voices saying "Like, yeah" to each other.

Then the trailer is quite misleading.

it is not 'weak' to choose birth/adoption endings over abortion endings in teen movies because teen abortions are pretty huge bummers no matter how you look at them.

i am not making any general statements about abortion at all. although i do think that adoption is generally favorable.

What do you mean by that sentence? That abortion is a bigger bummer for teens than for adults? That birth/adoption is better than abortion for teens?

(x-post)

I am saying that very few people want to go see a quirky teen comedy about abortion, because it is about the termination of a zygote/fetus/baby (depending on your views) and that is some seriously dark and unfun movie territory.

I also do not want to see teen movies about vasectomies, the consequences of gang rape, or miscarriage, but that does not mean I don't believe they don't exist or are unimportant.