Has The NME Got Good?

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Do you think, somewhere in the OMNIVERSE, there is a parallel world where people complain bitterly about Mixmag being crap because it doesn't cover enough Teenage Fanclub?

MJ Hibbett, Thursday, 19 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Not sure if you were being serious or not, but actually I've been involved in that discussion. My take on it is that Mixmag don't pretend to be anything other than a dance magazine (although seeing as the dance mags tend to cover hip hop and post-rock as well they're probably about as diverse as the NME - doesn't mean they're doing what they do particularly well though). NME on the other hand has pretensions of universality that it just does not on the whole live up to.

Tim, Thursday, 19 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Great - so now I know all about NYC - it's changed my life.

tha ill presidente, Friday, 20 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

NYC - it was rather pointless exercise - like some free holiday advertising for New York City /State overseas marketing department. An advertorial.

Next week its Destiny's Child - another useless front cover.

DJ Martian, Friday, 20 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Look, DJ M, the NME are not going to put Ulver on the front cover. EVER. And what is more that is the RIGHT DECISION. A feature, maybe, but not the cover.

Destiny's Child - and the NYC issue for that matter - pretty much confirm my original qn, i.e. the NME is on the right track currently. Themed issues = good. Putting the people making exciting pop records on the cover = good. The records Destiny's Child are making at the moment are terrific - there shouldn't even be a question about them being on the NME front cover.

Tom, Friday, 20 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

As regards ABC-figures, as Marcello mentioned, the best-selling NME of the 80s (by about 300%) had CILLA BLACK on the cover.

We didn't know where to put ourselves.

mark s, Friday, 20 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

Actually I don't have any plans for Ulver - to be front cover status on my weekly weblog feature. I have mapped out in my head the next 4 weeks in advance.

However the NME should at least have a 1 page feature of Ulver.

and a significant album review - in the old MM circa late 80s- a band released a significant and exceptional album then they would be rewarded with a large review (column inches) regardless of size profile.

I will be surprised if the NME review the Ulver album - as the NME are ignorant bastards when it comes to non US/British bands.

For the curious Ulver - Perdition City

Ulver - Perdition City - is released April 23th on Jester Records through Shellshock/Pinnancle in the UK.

There are also a number of important points on the NME current music coverage - that I want to expand on. Later.

DJ Martian, Friday, 20 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

No, it still hasn't got good.

the pinefox, Thursday, 26 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

last night, on the bus home, someone was reading thee latest NME. When he got off, he left it on the seat. Despite there being another 1/2 hour to go before I got home, I didn't bother picking it up. I suppose that's my answer right there.

x0x0

norman fay, Thursday, 26 April 2001 00:00 (12 years ago) Permalink

1 month passes...
Kids! Read the NME this week! There's this cool city called New York! It's happening like London isn't! We say you should be there! Cool bands with guitars! That's the future! The Strokes! The apex of popular culture! The most important group ever to emerge from music! We're not at all desperate! We've started slagging off Missy Elliott already! What? Still listening to hip-hop? That was two months ago! Keep up!

Marcello Carlin, Friday, 8 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Death to the NME! The future of thinking and writing about pop should be left to us, we've totally-by-accident formed our little Leninist core of revolutionaries, now we just need to storm King's Reach Tower and dispose of all the counter-revolutionary journos, preferably by drowning them in a big vat of Marmite.

DG, Friday, 8 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

But they have this really exciting feature where they ask people what was the last text message they sent! How could I give up such insight into the human mind?

Nicole, Friday, 8 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Shit, forgot about that. Such value for £1.20! I've said it before and I'll say it again, the future of music writing will probably be online and fan-based.

DG, Saturday, 9 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I do believe we are standing waist-deep in the future as we speak/type.

David Raposa, Saturday, 9 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

The NME? wasn't that something to do with the 90s?

gareth, Saturday, 9 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

No.

the pinefox, Saturday, 9 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Travis are on the front of this weeks issue, with a coption that proves all the Missy/DC/etc stuff was only temporary until the "real" music returned: "THE BIGGEST BAND IN BRITAIN JUST GOT BIGGER".

In what way are Travis the biggest band in Britain? Hear'say? Westlife? Destiny's Child? Atomic Kitten? How many number ones have Travis had? Their definition of "band" seems to still be confined to a) Not manufactured (Whatever that means) b) Play guitars (and only guitars - none of this electronic nonsense) c) Male. It's the equivalent of Fruit and Veg Magazine putting Greengrocer Of The Year on the cover and describing them as "THE GREATEST PERSON WHO EVER LIVED", provided by "person" they mean "greengrocer".

Graham, Thursday, 21 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Graham, I love you.

Nick, Friday, 22 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

...well Travis have just had the biggest first week sales for any number one album this year and is predicted to be the biggest selling album of the year in the UK. They might have a point.

But to get back to the subject...I think NME has changed for the better this year, but basically there just isn't enough to read in it that's interesting.

Maybe it's trying to be all things to all people, when it will always be synonymous with indie/leftfield music. Personally I don't mind reading about Destiny's Child or Outkast as long as it's interesting. But people are going to read Mix Mag, Hip Hop Connection whatever, if they are really into the dance, hip-hop or R'n'B scenes.

What was it that Matt from Sarah Records once said..."if you're a fan of jangley guitars then you're narrow minded. If you're a hip-hop fan then you are a specialist." or something like that.

GD, Friday, 22 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

that's a stupid thing to say, typical of such insular minds. hip-hop is a genre in which it's impossible to be deeply into whilst still being "specialist" simply because its foundations are in turning parasitism into innovation (n.b., i'm not saying this is a bad thing at all).

to be heavily into hip-hop, understand the push/pull it enacts, you can't be fascistic about it, which is why the holier than thou attitude taken on by much of the uk hip-hop underground (trying to put pop in a cage where it can be looked at but not touched) - and, i suppose, that of our transatlantic counterparts as well - irks so much.

Izzie, Friday, 22 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

that didn't come out quite right: was saying matt sarah was insular not anyone else.

Izzie, Friday, 22 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Izzie - I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but I do know that there isn't one musical genre out there that doesn't have its share of closed-minded tunnel-vision purist ayatollahs, hip hop definitely included.

Patrick, Friday, 22 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

"Some of the freelances approached NME's brand director, Steve Sutherland, asking to renegotiate the clauses. But after an initial meeting with Mr Sutherland, they claim to have heard nothing further." MediaGuardian, June 20
What on Earth is a 'brand director', eh?

DG, Monday, 25 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I'm Freaky Trigger's Brand Director. So there.

Tom, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Steve Sutherland is eee-vil and has been the recipient of an IPC pay packet for about 20 years now. 'Director' is what editors become when they get kicked upstairs, and rather than commission writing their job is to think of all sorts of reasons not to, while wearing a suit. Anyway, I'm not buying the NME or hitting their site until the followinbg is resolved:

NME freelancers are being told to sign these horrible new agreements. Say, for example, someone gets to do a feature with Destiny's Child. The writer turns in a pretty good interview but has some material left over. The LA Weekly or someone asks for that writer to file a piece on same. Under the terms of the NME's new agreement, they wouldn't be able to because the NME would own, forever, the TAPE of the interview and any other out-takes.

Any freelance who doesn't sign does not get any more work from the paper/website. They are paid something like 15p a word for work they do, which is a lot less than you can get for selling interviews to the American market or a British newspaper, and they have none of the benefits of being on staff, usually no retainer even. It's patently unfair to ask those without job security to agree to such terms, and 20 writers are looking into a potential case against IPC for restraint of trade/intellectual property rights etc. If you want to know more, Tom, ask Angus Batey to fill you in. I think he was the one who went to the Guardian in the first place.

The best part of the story DG's quoting? 'Mr Sutherland was unavailable for comment.' Now there's a great big fuckin' first!

suzy, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

"to sutherland": to take downmarket, to reduce journalistic quality, to sensationalise, to tabloidise ("the sutherlanded Melody Maker").

Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

That shit will really help them, won't it? I give the NME till the end of the year before it goes the same way as the Melody Maker.

DG, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

NME The veteran title recorded an 8.2% period-on-period decline to 70,003, with 8% of that drop taking place in the past six months.

Source Media Guardian Feb 2001

I would think that if the NME dropped below 50,000 a week then questions would be asked about its future.

Sounds closed at around around 39,000 sales in 1991, Melody Maker closed at 32,500 sales in Dec 2000.

However much I dislike NME's music direction in 2001 To lose 20,000 sales from Feb 2001 to the end of the year, is unlikely.

DJ Martian, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

They will if I genectically engineer some form of paper-eating louse that is attracted to the bad journalism of the NME. Or they keep printing obviously made-up letters in the letters page that say "We love you NME", only elaborate a bit more. Or they persist in this Strokes nonsense.

DG, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Isn't the NME coming up to its 50th anniversary fairly soon? Don't think IPC will close it before they celebrate this 'milestone'...

Andrew L, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

To clarify: until recently, freelance journalists enjoyed 'one use' rights, meaning, they have the right to sell on their copy etc. once the issue containing their writing is no longer current. I sometimes sell on interviews to an online syndication agency after they've appeared in mags that don't have sites. Obviously, the long-life nature of online journalism complicates matters and many magazines and newspapers have upped their freelance rates a smidgen in recognition of this.

When the Guardian went online it sent around a fait accompli letter to anyone submitting freelance work that said The Guardian owned the reprint rights on each piece submitted; notification of this fact equalled an expectation of compliance. A lot of people stopped dealing with them afterward because the freelance rate did not rise one jot. What's going on at the NME is about a million times worse, and might be one reason the thing appears to be written by monkeys and Muppets these days - good writers often have annoying characteristics like principles and the tendency to disagree with the logic of their 'superiors' at work.

I don't think the NME will go down the pan because the site gets a gazillion hits every week. Brand manager is the perfect job for an Oxbridge, sexist skinhead Muppet like Sutherland, the job can do itself.

suzy, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Sutherland is a scummer too - he supports Southamp[scum]ton FC.

Do the freelancers laugh at the Travis, Stereophonics, The Strokes and Linkin Park front covers ..like the rest of us?

Who decides on the NME front covers Sutherland or Knowles or 16 year old work experience kids on a focus market research panel? I want to identify blame.

DJ Martian, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Keith Cameron left the NME to go to rival publishers EMAP to work on Mojo. Why did he leave? As he one was one of the few decent writers at the NME [he started out at Sounds in the 80s.]

Also I noticed that Mojo are seeking a new editor at the mo Advert

DJ Martian, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

They also want a website editor... could this be my new career? mwah hah hah! Oh wait... deep understanding of Mojo. No, I don't understand Mojo, so never mind.

masonic boom, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Well, Mark Sutherland supports Portsmouth, if that makes you feel any better.

But did you see the piece Keith Cameron wrote on Travis for the Guardian Weekend? I found it frighteningly ambivalent, as though he was just *describing* the situation where they have got so big, and he just didn't seem motivated to speak out against it. Maybe age has hit him where it hurts, but his pro-Oasis rhetoric wasn't what I wanted to read from the NME *at all* in 1995.

Robin Carmody, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

No missed that Travis article and can't remember Keith Cameron on Oasis. Anything page/article with Oasis on I use to skip it as their music did not interest me one bit in 1995 or now.

Mark Sutherland - a pompey fan - well that is suprising.

DJ Martian, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Martian: who decides?

Definitely the editor, after feedback in editorial meetings, with pressure from upstairs. Yes, the freelancers do often laugh themselves sick at the choices made by the above. I actually don't think they're focus groupies at the NME (and anyway, no focus group I've ever been privy to asks for specifics about content, more general areas or should the spine be book-bound rather than stapled, yada yada). That's Emap's department: a pal of mine who once edited one of their music mags was rung on Boxing Day by the big cheese to be told if his cover choice didn't pan out, heads would roll.

Also, access is controlled by PR's who grant exclusives based on the promise of A Cover ('my client will not get out of bed for less than 5000 words') and how arsey the paper's tone has been to the other artists they represent. NME will generally be in the same queue for coverage as Mixmag, The Face, Q, Mojo. Dazed and Confused. i-D and Sleazenation choose who to cover based on sneakier means; getting early access to photographs because one of their people, say Wolfgang Tillmans or Juergen Teller or Corinne Day, has done a shoot (photographers have much, much better phone books than most editors). If style mags have the photos, then they have a powerful bargaining tool with the PRs who represent the artiste. No PR company would get angry at a 'cool' photographer for this kind of scoop, as they lend the artiste cred and in many cases get commissions from the record company direct.

Hate to be all insider/media ho' about this, but I think it's my duty, after 10 years' experience of these matters, to put that to use demystifying the media's methods.

suzy, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

More insider/meeja hoar info, please Suzy! I am utterly fascinated by the way it all works. My former friends at NME and MM have by this time become so disgusted with the entire process, that they have fled to other occupations and can no longer dish the dirt. I love to be horrified by the behind the scenes mechanations, even as they make me start to even loathe music.

That was the eye-opening thing inside books like _Powder_ - not the "Oh my god, rock stars are perverted, and singer/songwriters are ego-ridden gits" bit of it, but the insider (manager) information on how things like "cover articles" get handed out.

Then again, I suppose knowing too much can really leave a distaste in the mouth. If someone chose to do a Popstars style expose on how even the "indie"s are completely mechanised, I think I would move to Alaska with ProTools and never leave the house again.

masonic boom, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Kate: totally. It does make me cynical about the process knowing how it works, but on the other hand it could never make me hate music. If I had 50p for every sneering comment I've had off the recording artists I know re. The Press I'd be very wealthy indeed. The best is when they insinuate you're less intellectual than them or some kind of whore for doing journalism, or think they're too high up the ladder to treat you with the civility you always show to them. PR's can be worse: they always moan that we ask for 'free' records and tickets to things but are the first people to moan if you're out of touch with what's happening. As if freelancers could ever afford to buy them; usually we're one step ahead of the bailiffs because some twunt hasn't paid us on time.

BTW my first job in London was, you guessed it, NME freelancer. I ran away to join the Riot Grrrls, as any sensible female would.

suzy, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

the same clan as Anjali?

Anjali

DJ Martian, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, she's a friend of mine. We used to be near neighbours, but she moved about 18 months ago so I only see her from time to time. London, eh?

suzy, Tuesday, 26 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

i did read the travis piece in the guardian. i thought the ambivalence of the piece was appropriate. i didn't think it needed cameron to *speak out*, the 'just describing' thing allowed travis to paint themselves as they wanted to be, and as they are.

gareth, Wednesday, 27 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Suzy- I guess it does not make me hate *music* per se, but it certainly does make me hate the *music biz* (including but not limited to The Music Press, record companies, PR and pluggers, etc.) and that suspicion can spill over into everything else. It can turn mere dislike that would previously mean ignoring into a bitter crusade of loathing (see The Strokes) and I have experienced a certain loss of the ability to "fall in love with" a band. You know, that feeling when you see a band live or hear a record for the first time, and listen utterly freely. I always find myself wondering what the angle is, what the catch is. Or perhaps that is just called growing up.

I would be interested in hearing your experiences of Riot Grrl, and whether you think it and its daughters have accomplished anything, but that's probably another thread.

Funny thing about "The Press" is... most musicians are unable to separate "The Press" (a faceless, corporate entity controlled by Brand Directors in IPC Towers) from the individual, badly paid, often cynical freelancers that are sent to review and/or interview them. Remember that musicians have been as badly burned by the Suits Upstairs as the freelancers have been, they just don't know it. (And vice versa)

masonic boom, Wednesday, 27 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

At Wire in 1992, we ran a policy of NO PEOPLE ON THE COVER for c.ten months — among other things we had a cardboard skull, a record, a toy robot, an opium poppy, an armchair, and, er , Brian Eno... Across the country millions failed to buy it each month, which was part of our Wire-Branes-Up strategy. I changed the policy when Thurston Moore told me to.

mark s, Wednesday, 27 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Those were the best issues of the Wire ever, too. One of your disgruntled ex-subscribers gave a load of them to Bookworm Books in Leatherhead and I got them for 20p each. "Blimey what is all this strange music" I asked myself, and bought none of it.

Tom, Wednesday, 27 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

cross-posted from a mailing list that some of us are on, I thought this was an interesting commentary on "what the heck is going on here?" times at the NME right now:

ht tp://news.independent.co.uk/uk/media/story.jsp?story=80594

Upmarket? Rolling Stone? What the blinkin' 'eck?

masonic boom, Thursday, 28 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Thanks Kate - you beat me to it. Saw it last night to looking for schnews on the freelancer crisis. Agggghhhhh...

suzy, Thursday, 28 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Doesn't mean they actually intend to ape the Stone: just means they want to shape a raison d'etre for an audience positional shift which ADVERTISERS (who don't read editorial, just ABCs and ad pages) understand. Stone sells = grate, to the adman. NME changes, fins a niche, sells = grate also. and adman doesn't give a fuck - or even notice - how utterly unlike RS it is.

It's all games.

Anyone got anything on David Lister? Name = familiar. Every time I read that Zappa quote (always quoted by eeevil sold-out pea- brains like Simon Hoggart) I find I despise FZ more.

mark s, Thursday, 28 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

Check the Grauniad's version:

suzy, Thursday, 28 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

it's

http://www.mediaguardian.co.uk/presspublishing/story/ 0,7495,513257,00.html

suzy, Thursday, 28 June 2001 00:00 (11 years ago) Permalink

I did suggest to mr S that there could be a fascinating book about the 'tribes' that inhabited NMEworld back in the day, and how they evolved/mutated. He seemed to srsly consider the idea, laffed even.

Mark G, Wednesday, 7 March 2012 00:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

for those who, like me, didn't know the story:

U2/NME versus Sinker

is the full review anywhere online?

ban this sick stunt (anagram), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 08:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

Pat Long was assistant editor at NME during the 2000s.

yyyyeeah, this doesn't sound more promising than re-reading the reminiscences in the 40th anniversary issue

Θ ̨Θƪ (sic), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 13:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

Pat is a cool dude and a good writer iircimho

I also only skimmed it in aforementioned book chain but unless I totally missed it there was next to no coverage of the last 10-15 years

Sylv_ebanks (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 14:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

Don't think anyone cares or wants to read anecdotes from The Killers about the Conor McNicholas era, even taking into account declining relevance of print media etc etc. My guess is it ends post-Britpop?

Homosexual Satan Wasp (Matt DC), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 14:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

I did suggest to mr S that there could be a fascinating book about the 'tribes' that inhabited NMEworld back in the day, and how they evolved/mutated. He seemed to srsly consider the idea, laffed even

I would definitely read that book.

I don't the NME has been relevant for a long time, so it makes sense that coverage would end about 10-15 years ago.

Respectfully, Tyrese Gibson (Nicole), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 15:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

Pat's a sound guy, a great writer and I think it's reasonable to end the book at the start of the internet age.

There are severe problems with proofing, subbing though...

Conan The Asshander (Doran), Wednesday, 7 March 2012 19:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

shame.

despite the fact i am no longer target audience, every time i have flicked through the nme recently have been impressed with the changes krissi has brought in :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/apr/12/nme-krissi-murison-sunday-times?CMP=twt_fd

of course, if an ilm'r steps up ..

mark e, Thursday, 12 April 2012 11:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah she made a decent job of it, it seemed a much less blinkered and, well, condescending publication over the last few years. Conor McNicholas tended to treat his readership like idiots who could only focus on three bands at once.

Homosexual Satan Wasp (Matt DC), Thursday, 12 April 2012 11:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

Co-signed. Sadly McNicholas had already wrecked that ship by the time she took over.

Scary Move 4 (dog latin), Thursday, 12 April 2012 11:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

I'd be perfectly happy to send in my CV but unfortunately I am at least twice the age of whoever they're looking for.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Thursday, 12 April 2012 12:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

It's a decent paper once again, even if not for me thesedays, yes.

Mark G, Friday, 13 April 2012 00:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

oh well looks like marcello, didn't get the job.

from CMJ mailout :

IPC yesterday announced the promotion of NME's Deputy Editor Mike Williams to the role of Editor. Williams, of course, replaces Krissi Murrison, who announced this year that she was moving on to become Features Editor of The Sunday Times Magazine.

Williams joined NME in 2010, prior to which he founded and was editor of Kruger magazine for six years. Initially freelancing for the music weekly, he then took on the role of Features Editor before moving up to become Murison's deputy.

Upon the announcement, Williams told CMU: "I'm super excited to be the new editor of NME. As far as dream positions go, it really doesn't get any better than this. Krissi Murison has done an amazing job as my predecessor, and I'm totally honoured to pick up the baton from her. My challenge is to make NME magazine and the wider NME brand even sharper, our message more coherent and to engage even more with NME's audience of passionate music fans. With the brilliant team we've got in place, I can't wait to get started!"

Meanwhile IPC's Publishing Director Emily Hutchings added: "After an extensive recruitment process, I am absolutely thrilled to announce Mike Williams as the next editor of NME. He brings with him a wealth of editorial experience as well as knowledge in managing multiplatform brand extensions. Mike demonstrated a clear strategic vision and passion for NME that will help take the brand on to even greater success".

The NME print publication, of course, is in terminal decline despite gallant efforts by Murison to overhaul the magazine, though the wider NME brand remains as strong as ever, with future potential almost certainly locked to online and digital innovations

mark e, Friday, 1 June 2012 10:39 (11 months ago) Permalink

I've known the dude for years - nice guy - no real idea what he'll be like editing the NME but it's cool by me

cissémanwhore (DJ Mencap), Friday, 1 June 2012 10:45 (11 months ago) Permalink

I didn't apply.

Here he is with the classic "Poème Électronique." Good track (Marcello Carlin), Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:29 (11 months ago) Permalink


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