Mad Men on AMC • Fifth Season Thread

Isn't Peggy now "lead copy" or something high up like that at the new place? Whatever it was that was written on the napkin? I don't think it was the fact that she wasn't appreciated at SCDP - though Don probably didn't show his appreciation enough - but I think she knew she had gone as far as she could go as a protege. Both Freddy and her saying that Don would have done the same thing was otm, and Don couldn't really argue with that. Beautifully done scene.

Yeah, I'm not sure this was as dark as the rape episode. I think what made it feel that way was the complicity of the people involved though. It felt like they crossed a rubicon.

xpost I assumed it was the lack of opportunities. Everywhere she turns it's "we can't put a girl on this account, we can't put a girl on that account, don't tell them you're in charge of this account, let someone else take the credit," etc. It was always done as if it was necessary to meet the client's needs but SCDP wasn't going to even try to educate the client or stand up for their own people. Seemed that Peggy kept getting stuck with all the boring work the guys weren't interested in.

joan has a vote now, so i imagine they'll move to some sort of situation where here stake matters in some important decision.

I kinda think we won't be seeing much of Peggy anymore, actually. When these characters leave SDCP we don't see much of them any longer. I mean, a bit, sure. But I doubt there will be much Peggy unless she comes back.

― homosexual II, Monday, May 28, 2012 8:30 PM (53 minutes ago)

nah, i refuse to believe it. as thermo said, after don, she's the show's most important character. like a sitcom everywoman, she's the POV through which we see the office - though i guess this is less the case now than it was during the first couple seasons. as when joan and peggy left the office's immediate orbit, i imagine the writers will track her doings for some time to come.

and fellini.kuti, otm. while the show's gone dark before, it's never hit me quite as hard as this.

Everywhere she turns it's "we can't put a girl on this account, we can't put a girl on that account, don't tell them you're in charge of this account, let someone else take the credit," etc. It was always done as if it was necessary to meet the client's needs but SCDP wasn't going to even try to educate the client or stand up for their own people. Seemed that Peggy kept getting stuck with all the boring work the guys weren't interested in.

― seriously, THIS GUY (daria-g), Monday, May 28, 2012 9:34 PM (1 minute ago)

also, don's been a complete asshole to her for q

... uite some time. it's obvious that she respects the hell out of him, and just as obvious that he views her as a nuisance whenever she isn't fading functionally into the background.

"OH NOES THAT ELEVATOR DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK. DON'T DIE! Okay, whew."

― Johnny Fever, Sunday, May 27, 2012 10:37 PM (Yesterday)

ha ha i was worried about peggy plummeting to her death too! every time someone uses the elevator now it's very stressful

― producer / dj / humanitarian (reddening), Sunday, May 27, 2012 10:39 PM (Yesterday)

lol, yeah, i was worried about drunk roger falling down the elevator shaft last week

Peggy's gonna get busted for weed, and Don'll have to bail her out.

I don't think he views her as a nuisance she isn't in the background. I think he expects her to be able to operate on her own, and he definitely has a "you're a subordinate and you'll do what your told" mentality a lot of the time, but that's to be expected. She had no where further to go at SCDP as long as Don was there, and they both knew it.

So many moments in the series when Don behaves like an asshole for reasons I can't understand. Some of them I can figure out, but others - like throwing money in Peggy's face - no idea.

You know someone is going to fall down that elevator shaft in the next two weeks. Maybe Jaguar guy? I hope it's not Ken.

General Don frustration at his seemingly endless writer's block, I thought. Unless that convo happened shortly after the creepy Joan meeting?

seems impt that ginsburg came up with the line after all. i'm really beginning to love that character, and the guy who plays him.

there were pins set up for Ginsburg that need knocking down in the next two episodes. Though Peggy's the only one he told his weird alien/not my real dad story to, so maybe that will never come up again, thanks Matt Weiner

i loved Ginsburg's explanation.. something along the lines of "i was thinking about the jerks that buy these cars..." and it seemed alot like he was describing Don.

he was definitely describing Don.

he was trying to, but it contrasted with last week's conversation between don and joan:

"I don't know what it is. The car does nothing for me."
"It's because you're happy. You don't need it."

Unless that convo happened shortly after the creepy Joan meeting?

I think it happened immediately after the creepy Joan meeting. Don was in no mood for niceties.

i don't know that he was trying to describe don specifically. xp

I just finished watching the repeat airing from tonight and it's even more potent the second time. All of it. Don and Megan. Don and Peggy. Joan and Pete. Joan and Lane. Joan and Don. This show doesn't always excel at the actual art of acting, but it most certainly did this week.

Thought it was a nice moment with Don and Peggy when he told her there was no way she'd be working on Jaguar - she read it as confirmation that she'd never get good work at SCDP but in that instance Don was trying to protect her after being horrified by what happened with Joan.

Oh yeah, and Joan and the sleazy dealer. When she turned around to unzip her dress and the camera switched to her face...gutwrenching.

I don't think I can overemphasize the two most important Joan and Don scenes, either. When her head dropped as she found out Don had been overruled and when Don learned she'd been made a partner by doing it anyway. ACTING!

The Jaguar meeting also showed Don's value and what puts him on a different plane than Peggy or Ginsburg - he was always better at the pitch than the actual copywriting and generating ideas is a different game than selling those ideas. Can't see someone like Ginsburg pitching his concept to Jaguar and getting nearly the same response with it.

Sketchiest part of the ep for me was how little Roger had to say about the whole affair. Reeked of contrivance.

Yeah, I'd say it was because now he's got two ex-wives and his family to support, but he was also trucking the lobsters.

But really, Roger doesn't care about anything other than himself and the practicalities. He can justify anything if it gets him what he wants. He loves Joan but he's never been able to treat her as an equal. He's a pretty sleazy dude, all told.

Then again he'd blow up the Honda account by going after the Japanese because of WWII, but maybe he cares more about that then he does women.

roger torpedoing the honda account seems like a relic from a less-developed era of the show & characters. hard to believe that the roger we've subsequently come to know would care enough about old grudges to do something like that.

Mad Men doesn't usually get me emotional but when Jaguar creep says to Joan "Now let's see 'em" and they cut to the blank expression on her face...aw jeez louise.
I could hardly watch I felt so sad.
Poor Joan.

I feel like there was some weird theme with Don + losing his "power" with women?
- With Megan & the audition, he says no she says eff off I'm doing it
- With Joan he says you don't have to lie with the creep but it's already a done deal, he thinks he saved her only to find she did it anyway
- Peggy's resignation. He can't talk her out of it.

I dunno, it just felt like a mini arc in light of the Jaguar/ownership of beautiful woman thing. Or i'm reading too much into it.

no, that's a good catch wr2 the idea of ownership and control he was pitching to jaguar

It contrasts w/Pete's war against women, which really became a thing post-Rory.

Don's relationship with women is definitely a running theme in the episode and, with regards to Megan, the season as a whole. The chauvinistic comparison of the Jaguar to a mistress is kind of a joke because it's not just some wayward fling on the side they can't control anymore, it's all the women in their lives. I think Don really likes Megan's free-spirit, independence, but he has a really hard time letting go of the way things "should be", in his mind, which is why he's been such a prick but also has eventually relented. Pete definitely set up as an opposite all season. He's not coping with the realities of women-as-people instead of women-as-objects nearly well at all.

Don also has issues with prostitution because of his mother, which is why I don't think he'll think less of Joan for doing what she did, but rather he feels guilty for being complicit in an environment that virtually necessitates prostitution.

Maybe I'm forgetting other times, but the only time I seem to remember him with a prostitute was the one that he paid to dominate him - even at his lowest the only way he could be with a prostitute was to give her the control his mother didn't have etc etc.

He had a hooker party w/Lane that one time too.

ah right. nevermind then.

started this season seeing don very much as the show's unacknowledged villain. by this point, it's hard not to see him as its only real hero.

*ahem* male hero, make that

I think it's silly to try to look at this show as "heroes" and "villains". Everyone's trying to figure themselves out, but some more than others. Pete is definitely an asshole, but we understand why he's an asshole. Don can be a real asshole, but we always understand why.

I think it's silly to try to look at this show as "heroes" and "villains".

xp - i agree, but old habits die hard

i'm just not post-affectionate wr2 fictional characters. some i like, some i don't.

It's fine to like or not like a character. my point is that it's not really the kind of dichotomy the show has any interest in.

yeah, i agree. cue endless "what the show is intersested in" vs. "what i am interested in" pas de deux.

Not necessarily the end of Joan's career; everyone is, perhaps begrudgingly, indebeted to her for being the ringer on their 1st auto account, which will supposedly make the company. If anything her presence just reminds them how they were all complicit in the act.

They have always flirted with the pimp / prostitute analogy for the ad industry. This episode just drove it home (hit you over the head with it). Megan turning around in the audition, money thrown at Peggy, Don thinking he can keep her there for the right price, and the explicit discussion of pimping out Joan. Everyone is compromised, with Joan as sacrificial lamb. I viewed this episode as "the point of no return".

have to presume the guy from jaguar will start showing up at the office next season demanding more from joan, causing stink and consternation a la lee garner jr

This episode just drove it home (hit you over the head with it). Megan turning around in the audition, money thrown at Peggy, Don thinking he can keep her there for the right price, and the explicit discussion of pimping out Joan. Everyone is compromised, with Joan as sacrificial lamb.

otm, "money thrown at Peggy, Don thinking he can keep her there for the right price" a damn good catch.

"Isn't Peggy now "lead copy" or something high up like that at the new place?"

Copy Chief is what it says on the napkin, so yes.

have to presume the guy from jaguar will start showing up at the office next season demanding more from joan

Even if just personally for Joan, will be p. disappointed if this doesn't have long-term ramifications of some kind.

like I can see why they dropped it as much as possible, but I always felt Peggy's baby was under-represented in terms of its plausible consequences.

You have to figure the Jaguar guy (who was on the search committee, not the actual point person?) might not get very far with Joan ever again - she's got her contract, and I doubt she signed anything that was contingent on *always* keeping the clients happy.