Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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I also think that "fighting for legitimacy" re: teenpop is sort of an outgrowth of a broader goal of mine to fight against idiocy in music writing, in part because I've contributed to this myself and still do occasionally. Teenpop is, almost without exception, where this idiocy is most pronounced, easiest to spot, and easiest to deflate. (But again, that's only when legitimacy is even an issue, which it isn't explicitly, or even implicitly, THAT often on the teenpop thread, and certainly isn't a "rule.")

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:41 (sixteen years ago) link

You have emailed dabug, Ned! He is waiting to hear about you about some essay he is supposed to write...

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:41 (sixteen years ago) link

xpost
exactly, you just shouldn't like what you like.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

well, there it is!

im not suggesting anything is unjustified or bad, just that all the reasons you have stated are surely a contributory factor to genre-boosterism, that wont be present in other genres for the simple fact that those barbs and attacks are not there?

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

696, I was just responding to Eppy's post. It was a joke. :-P

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

if you are a teenpop fan, there is always the chance of this kind of attack, just round the corner, so defensiveness isnt surprising, even if its quite muted

I'm never surprised, but I'm often defensive. Especially when it happens here. What is this "outside world" of which you speak, anyhow?

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.newyorktelephone.net/images/03-2006/28/5000.jpg

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

You have emailed dabug, Ned! He is waiting to hear about you about some essay he is supposed to write...

Astounding!

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

696, I was just responding to Eppy's post. It was a joke. :-P

-- Mordechai Shinefield,

ffs you guys, can you not keep it humourless, i cant keep up

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:44 (sixteen years ago) link

I've got to go take a film final on [wait for it......] legitimacy and marginalization in Jewish film. Be back later.

― Mordechai Shinefield, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:44 (sixteen years ago) link

serious, i dont see anyone suggesting you dont like what you like

not you, but it's all over the place! people accusing the teenpop dudes of "frothing" or "fawning" or "exaggerating" or "going overboard" when they call albums by lindsay lohan or paris hilton amazing

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

You can't beat a good Aly and AJ tune for SHAME SHAME SHAME. Try "Not This Year"!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

696 otm upthread btw

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

OR IS HE

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

no, he is.

― Eppy, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:45 (sixteen years ago) link

yes lex I KNOW.

i thought people were saying i was saying that, because...i was discussing with them

the reason people say that, is why i think there is genre-boosting!!

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

("Not This Year" is amazing, btw, my #4 single of the year. Last year's #4 was "First" by LiLo, just like jaymc!)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

oh shit, i should quit while im ahead

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

to be honest i don't think calling the teenpop people "defensive" is at all helpful - if anything i'm impressed at how calm and level-headed they've mostly remained, i don't have anything like that patience to deal with stupid attacks. it's the stupidity of the attacks which is more the issue here

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

Important point here: Hilary Duff is much better than TV on the Radio.

See, this is precisely the sort of "look, controversial!" rhetoric that rubs me the wrong way. Not because I believe that TV on the Radio is inherently better. (I like them sometimes but also think they're very much overrated. I can't remember ever having heard a Hilary Duff song, although I probably have.) But there is this sense of gleeful canon upheaval that doesn't really engage with its motivations all the time. I mean, I understand how it's worthwhile to focus on music that ordinarily doesn't written about at all, but there is an element of "blah, indie rock!" beyond the Lex complaining about boys with guitars. There's Mordecai's immediate assumption that the posters on this thread that are complaining about teenpop and/or the teenpop thread are somber "indie kids" (not so much). And I seem to recall a Cure for Bedbugs blog post about the new Arcade Fire album, which amounted to not much more than "Ick! Dull, dull, dull!" -- which I guess is partially an attempt to distance himself from his own 9.7 Pitchfork review of the first one.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:47 (sixteen years ago) link

AMAZINGNESS of lohan's 'first' seconded (also 'speak' and 'nobody til you' and i heart the ott melodrama of 'confessions')

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:47 (sixteen years ago) link

Wait, did we decide genre-boosting is good or bad already? We can't even decide whether or not teenpop is actually a genre on the teenpop thread! I should be taking notes...

xpost, jaymc, that was clearly baiting intended for this thread. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a statement like that (from me, anyway) on the teenpop thread. Maybe on my blog, though, because it makes me chuckle to myself to do that occasionally...especially on Mislabeled Monday. Wonder if I can still get to #1 on Hype Machine with that trick.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:49 (sixteen years ago) link

i dont mean actually overtly defensive lex. i mean that positive boosterism is a (necessary?) form of defensiveness, because its important for the framework/genre to be taken seriously, in order for the players to be taken seriously

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:49 (sixteen years ago) link

"First" was 2005, btw. My #4 last year was "Crazy."

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:50 (sixteen years ago) link

No, I called the new Arcade Fire album DULL DULL DULL because it's fucking DULL DULL DULL and their last one was worth 9.7 Pitchfork Dollars.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:50 (sixteen years ago) link

its a bit like how football fans are fans of their team, but dont really boost for football itself

but fans of minor sports are fans of the sport, and rep for the sport itself

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:50 (sixteen years ago) link

See, this is precisely the sort of "look, controversial!" rhetoric that rubs me the wrong way.

so why doesn't it rub you the wrong way when it's the other way round, which is far far more common, esp on ilm? the assumption that tv on the radio/bob dylan/whoever are not only "obviously" better than hilary duff, but also "obviously" more worthy of discussion?

and for all that you lot say that our "canon-upheaval" is oh so tired, i think the outraged response to it is indicative that...no matter how much you think you're over it, it's still v much ingrained in your attitudes

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:50 (sixteen years ago) link

And f's sake, all you got out of that massive post was "ick dull dull dull"???? It was like three thousand words long or something! Plus comment threads!

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:51 (sixteen years ago) link

"See, this is precisely the sort of "look, controversial!" rhetoric that rubs me the wrong way."

why is this "controversial"? or why would you think someone was being controversial just by saying it. lots of things are better than t.v. on the radio.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:51 (sixteen years ago) link

i would never rep for football itself, i dont mind, whatever. i boost for my team though

but fans of sports thrown to the side by football boost for their sport also, in the face of footballs dominance

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:51 (sixteen years ago) link

so why doesn't it rub you the wrong way when it's the other way round, which is far far more common, esp on ilm?

Who says it doesn't? I can't fucking stand Bob Dylan.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:52 (sixteen years ago) link

but fans of minor sports are fans of the sport, and rep for the sport itself

haha when i'm talking to other tennis fans i'll rip into eg serena williams for all the cunty things she's done over the years but the moment i talk to a non-tennis fan i'll be like SERENA IS GREAT, she may be a cunt but she's OUR cunt

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:52 (sixteen years ago) link

(And if I wanted to distance myself from the Arcade Fire, why would I choose to listen to a buncha kids' music??? Maybe AF was my gateway drug!)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:53 (sixteen years ago) link

re lex: DINGDINGDING

― 696, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:53 (sixteen years ago) link

Who says it doesn't? I can't fucking stand Bob Dylan.

well it may do but for some reason there are no 300-answer threads questioning the legitimacy of bob dylan threads!

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:54 (sixteen years ago) link

yes there are

― deej, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:56 (sixteen years ago) link

I said upthread that Bob Dylan AND The Beatles AND The Stones were better than Aly and AJ, Lex. I meant it, too. Sorry.

xpost Lex this is untrue! There are at least two or three "Hey wow that Bob Dylan doesn't his voice suck I think he's OVERRATED" threads.

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:56 (sixteen years ago) link

why is this "controversial"? or why would you think someone was being controversial just by saying it. lots of things are better than t.v. on the radio.

Because Hilary Duff and TV on the Radio have nothing to do with each other except for the fact that one is teenpop and is generally maligned, and the other is indie rock and was #1 on the Idolator poll last year. There's no reason to ever compare the two, especially in such simple language (i.e., X is better than Y) except to make a point that bears little relation to the music itself and has more to do with the broader implications of the statement (i.e., "there's some teenpop that's better than some indie rock" -- well, no shit). I'd love to hear an argument of how Hilary Duff is actually better than TV on the Radio, though, that actually engages with what TV on the Radio sounds like and why whatever they're doing doesn't work as strongly or effectively as Hilary Duff.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:57 (sixteen years ago) link

What do TV on the Radio sound like, incidentally?

― Groke, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:58 (sixteen years ago) link

But those threads are about Bob Dylan, not about the people who post about Bob Dylan.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:58 (sixteen years ago) link

"but there is an element of "blah, indie rock!" beyond the Lex complaining about boys with guitars."

"blah, indie rock!" is a perfectly valid reason to listen to stuff that isn't indie rock!

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:58 (sixteen years ago) link

someone brought up t.v. on the radio. i can't remember who. i think that's the only reason a comparison was made.

― scott seward, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 16:59 (sixteen years ago) link

but they aren't questioning the right of bob dylan boosters to exist - there's a diff between "this lindsay lohan song sucks" and "i find the very existence of a teenpop thread to be creepy and unbearable"

i've never heard aly & aj but i do think that any given song off the paris hilton album, maybe including the dodgy rod stewart cover, pisses all over everything i've ever heard by bob dylan/rolling stones/beatles

^^^the kind of thing which will get called "wilful contrarianism" or "annoying tired canon-upheaval" when it's actually just something i genuinely think

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:00 (sixteen years ago) link

Play six degrees of separation here, jaymc...do the Killers have anything to do with TV on the Radio? At least in a way that Hilary Duff doesn't? So then how could "Beat of My Heart," which is better than any Killers song I've ever heard (before their last album), not have anything to do with TV on the Radio? Or would you make an argument that the Killers have as much "less to do with" TV on the Radio as Hilary Duff?

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:00 (sixteen years ago) link

what would a thread about the people posting about bob dylan involve, i wonder.

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:00 (sixteen years ago) link

(Also, what scott said...I was responding directly to the comparison that was made on this thread)

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:01 (sixteen years ago) link

the right of bob dylan boosters to exist

No one questioned the right of anyone to exist!

― Tim Ellison, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

What do TV on the Radio sound like, incidentally?

i only ever heard the first album but from what i recall the answer is "an unlistenable mess, all things thrown into the mix at the excat same pitch with little to no regard for how they sound together; a singer who sounds like he's being tortured; like muse but without any of the tunes"

― lex pretend, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

"blah, indie rock!" is a perfectly valid reason to listen to stuff that isn't indie rock!

Of course it is! But it's not a very good criticism.

― jaymc, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

*meaning Hilary sounded like pre-Sam's Town Killers. I didn't actually like Sam's Town very much.

― dabug, Tuesday, 15 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

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