Rolling Metal Thread 2012

I'm actually getting really excited about the Slayer day of IBYM in London now.

Is anyone going?

Yep, just the Friday.

I liked it when Scion emailed me a free Omar-S EP the other week

i have no problem with scionfest as its got good bands but

"The underground" is not a real thing that exists

at the risk of stunting the growth of another amusing ILM beef, I suspect you've misinterpreted what he was getting at there

ie my reading was that it wasn't a tangible and rigidly definable thing, so strictly speaking couldn't be 'infiltrated'

well in which case apologies but he does have a record of slagging off underground metal bands/labels/fans(and me the other day). i know several people who work really hard doing their own labels or distros, not for much if any profit, but for love of music and they fund it out of their own pockets. They dont have pr men or advertise in metal magazines so therefore dont make EOY album lists like the bigger labels (indie or major) can.

Today in Glasgow I bought a couple of Trouble live lps and the paul chain ep. All on HRR. Also got the 1st Argus and The Devil's Blood cds 2nd hand. They had loads of other lps i wanted like the 1st In Solitude album but couldnt afford it. Sadly they didn't have the Torche lp either.

Here's why and how I can argue that "'the underground' is not a real thing that exists":

I am 40 years old. I have been actively involved with unpopular music (going to shows, buying records, reviewing bands for tiny fly-by-night zines) since roughly 1985 (the writing part started in 1996). Many's the time I have considered starting a label of my own - though in my case it would be a jazz label, so I'd really be throwing money down a hole. In all that time, I have never encountered a musician who wanted to be less well known than they were, or have fewer people hearing their work. The problem was never one of "selling out" - it was one of getting someone, anyone, to pay any attention at all.

The whole idea of "selling out" exists only in the minds of insecure and overzealous fans (many of whom are also writers, unfortunately, which is how this absurd idea maintains currency) who don't want people they don't personally know (or, at the very least, people who seem cool, thus making the insecure and overzealous fan feel cool by association) listening to their favorite bands. Bands want to be heard, and art requires patrons. For a while it was the Catholic Church or various rich fuckers who were paying the bills, and now it's corporations. DIY is great, but 99 percent of DIY metal artists and labels would happily take a bag of money if it would help get their music to more people. (I specify metal because there's always the counterexample of the noise scene, which is willfully obscurantist because it's basically a cranky, reactionary, fuck-you-Dad gesture against the larger society. Which is fine. Pat them on the head and leave them alone.) The only time an artist "sells out" is when they do something they would not otherwise do, solely for the money. I have not yet seen a Scion-sponsored artist write a song about Scion cars.

And, to reiterate, when you're saying "the underground" you're talking about under-capitalized, lower-tier artists with little or no public profile. These are not people with a lot of money. They probably can't afford to buy a new car. So why would it make sense for a car company to market to them and/or their fans? I don't have an answer to why Scion supports metal. But I think the bands are finding the situation advantageous, so good for them.

I don't have an answer to why Scion supports metal.

i am truly amazed that they are still at this, it's been several years now

I don't really know shit about cars or how much a new Scion costs but at this point I suspect the people watching most of the sort of bands that play Scion events make more at their job than the bands do

music writers like yourself? ;)

music writers like yourself? ;)

Yeah, except even when I was 24 and getting my first pieces published, I never believed in the idea of "selling out" or used that phrase in my work.

In all that time, I have never encountered a musician who wanted to be less well known than they were, or have fewer people hearing their work. The problem was never one of "selling out" - it was one of getting someone, anyone, to pay any attention at all.

well there are always tru kvlt black metal dudes

those guys are similar in FU attitude to the noise bands, I suppose.

Yeah, but that's the equivalent of a small child yelling "Don't look at me!" at the top of its lungs. It has the opposite effect.

as a dude that works in a different end of the music industry tho, yeah, i agree with your sentiment 100% (abt the wanting to be known aspect)

The whole idea of "selling out" exists only in the minds of insecure and overzealous fans (many of whom are also writers, unfortunately, which is how this absurd idea maintains currency) who don't want people they don't personally know (or, at the very least, people who seem cool, thus making the insecure and overzealous fan feel cool by association) listening to their favorite bands.

this is a falsehood. it is true that most bands would like to be more heard. testimony, I got an offer for a hotel ad a couple years ago, they were just using an instrumental part of a really good aerosmith song. the song's important to some people, doesn't really have anything to do with getting a good night's sleep at a hotel. in fact, what goes on in a hotel in this song would probably get you thrown out of the hotel. so I said "no," because it wouldn't have been right for the song, aesthetically, to be placed there, even though it would have expanded my audience and gotten me paid. taking the money & coming up w/some bullshit rationalization about it would have pretty much been dictionary-definition "selling out."

so the point is, it's actually possible to hope that people who'd enjoy what you do will hear it, and work hard to make that happen, without whoring yourself for money, which is what tethering your music to an unrelated product is, imo. the scion stuff is more interesting than that, because it really does seem to be helmed by dudes who give a shit about metal & are putting on good shows, which is important to the scene is ways that scene purity isn't. to then say "there's no underground/there's no scene" is patently absurd, though

the song's important to some people

question: if the song was a really obscure aerosmith song that nobody showed a particular fondness towards, would you have felt differently about letting them use it? like did the consideration lie in aerosmith's sense of integrity about how the music is used, or in trying to protect aerosmith fans who may have felt betrayed to hear it in that context?

smithy otm

if the song was a really obscure aerosmith song that nobody showed a particular fondness towards, would you have felt differently about letting them use it?

idk I generally err on the side of "if you have any doubt, say no" - context is important, content is important, it's not the audience's fondness as much as the particular strain of fondness (if it's a song people like 'cause it's got a good beat & a nice hook that's different from "this song meant a lot to my family in a difficult time"), you just have to follow your gut on these things & if your gut tells you "this feels like I'd be selling something I can't get back for money" then you are in fact selling out imo & that's to be avoided generally

but don't get me wrong if somebody's got a million bucks for "Bright Light Fright" I'm all fucking ears, there's bills to pay around here

I actually got to your specific objection four sentences later, aero.

it's true you did but that first sentence is pretty sweeping & rong imo

Well, I would submit that the actual type of selling out you describe, and which I also agree is a Bad Thing, is also pretty vanishingly rare - I mean, how many examples can we actually cite? The Beatles song "Revolution" in a Nike ad? The Clash song (was it "London Calling"?) in a UK jeans ad? And maybe this is where we differ, possibly because I am not myself a songwriter, but I don't really think of licensing a song for a commercial (or a movie trailer, or whatever else) as being in any way out of bounds. It's never bothered me to hear a song I recognized in a commercial. It's never caused me to think more favorably of the product in question, either.

Like, in order to be truly egregiously whorin' it up, for me, the artist would have to change the song to make it more friendly to the product in question. Like when Devo made "Whip It" about Swiffers. Or Dee Snider singing about carpet cleaning services (a thing which actually happened on my TV this very morning). Those kinds of things are gross and unsettling. But licensing an existing song, in its existing form, to advertise a product to which you have no personal objection (i.e. not a political campaign or beer or whatever trips your personal trigger)? I say take the money. Buy yourself somethin' nice.

yeah I just can't. have licensed (for low $, I should say, not enough to pay a month's rent) to a music-selling service where the ad was specifically about music & how people enjoy it, that seemed different - it was a sweet little thing that I liked, it fit. if record stores still did TV ads I'd sell the hell outta my stuff to Licorice Pizza for an ad. but who'll ever hear "Pink Moon" again and not think at some point of the VW ad? that's a disservice to a song that deserves better, I'm a romantic, the song is more important than me getting something nice, or that's true if the song's any good, anyway. if aerosmith sucked live & had trouble pulling a crowd I'd probably feel different but as it stands we kick ass and put in work and enjoy our work so I'm in a position of privilege here

How about if you were asked to have a song on an ad for your fave beer? Its a beer you drink all the time, so you wouldn't be advertising something you dont actually use. Would you license a song then?

Totally fair, and I'm not gonna even try to convince you you're wrong. I, on the other hand, would take the Fay Weldon deal in a fucking heartbeat.

this is probably as good a place as any to admit that while i am glad that laurie anderson is making $$$ every time o superman comes on my television while some dude uses a digital camera to shoot a skydiving fashion shoot a little part of me dies inside

because Some Dude took the photo?

(I specify metal because there's always the counterexample of the noise scene, which is willfully obscurantist because it's basically a cranky, reactionary, fuck-you-Dad gesture against the larger society. Which is fine. Pat them on the head and leave them alone.)

this is undoubtedly true for some noise folks but I think you're oversimplifying a bit too much here to make a larger point. which I suspect you realize - aren't fushitsusha one of your favorite bands? the aesthetic they're working is not cranky or reactionary in the least imo. more spiritual and tv spots really wold take something away from that. (tho a keiji haino doritos commercial would be pretty hilarious.)

When I say noise I mean Wolf Eyes, Prurient etc. I don't actually think Haino considers himself a "noise" artist, and I've never understood why he gets called that. To me he's a psychedelic guitar hero on a par with Randy Holden and even Hendrix. And his non-guitar stuff isn't "noise" either - it's extremely spiritual, as you say. I make fun of metal bands for using the word "ritual" to describe their gigs, but I've seen Haino performances for which that term would apply 100%.

So, I've actually done work for Scion AV, and spoken to the artists in question. From what I gather, a lot of them actually prefer Scion to record labels – they fly them around, book the shows, pay to put them in nice hotels, and in the case of the EP series, they foot the studio time and distribution and don't really expect anything in return other than getting to slap their logo on it. Nobody I've spoken to actually seems to know how this is supposed to equal profit, but from what I understand the executive behind the AV stuff is actually a genuine metal fan, and they get legit people to curate their events. I guess it's just a way to get the name out there (and, compared to the cost of putting together commercials and buying airtime, probably fairly cost-effective). And hell, I guess it works to an extent – when I was looking for a new car, I actually did look at Scions before I realized I couldn't actually fit into any of them. Yeah, it's corporate sponsorship. But weirdly, they've actually been doing a good enough job that at this point I would venture to say that they have earned some metal cred.

On the other hand, I guess I'm a sellout for working for them, so BOW BEFORE YOUR CORPORATE OVERLORDS.

yeah when you put it like that it seems pretty fuckin awesome for the bands

one of our journos needs to get an interview with the metal-loving scion exec

hah, would read.

would be cool if the scion detroit techno stuff is also happening because of this one exec.

Hey Neil S, I reposted your IBYM mix on The Quietus, I hope you don't mind. It's a while since I've listened to three Slayer albums before breakfast.

Listened to the new Vitus coming into work this morning. I gotta confess, they're usually a band I admire more than actually listen to for pleasure, a few killer songs aside ("Born Too Late" etc.), but this record is really, really solid. I also like the fact that it's relatively short - under 40 minutes. Get in, hit hard, get out.

I wrote this on the Vitus thread the other day:

Finally getting to hear the new record in preparation for seeing them Friday. First off, it sounds amazing. Clarity and heft, and though Wino is way up front as always it doesn't take away the power of the band behind as it does on some of the 80s records. However, there isn't a lot of meat on the bones. A short record, and not incredibly memorable despite being recorded so well. Maybe it'll grow a bit more over time, but I'm a few listens in and waiting for the earworm. I do expect the songs will work well live mixed in with the classic material.

Lazarus pit time again, female fronted metal but NOT girly metal: http://www.decibelmagazine.com/featured/the-lazarus-pit-fear-of-gods-within-the-veil/

Does that just mean female cookie monster vox?

Why do I still buy physical media? Because I bet your iTunes download of Lillie:F-65 didn't come with a fuckin' Saint Vitus beer coozy. That's why.

It also comes with a beer coaster – the CD! BOOM. (I love physical media too, just couldn't resist the joke)

xp If you read the article, Mordy, it will tell you what you want to know. Plus there's a convenient video embedded so you can actually listen to one of their songs!

Hey, I teed it up, someone had to send it home.

If there is a terrible, obvious joke to be made, I will be the one to make it.

I got Saint Vitus branded rolling papers with my vinyl.

hah, like that cheech and chong lp

Ha. But I'm much more likely to use a beer coozy before I'd be likely to use the rolling papers.