Occupy Wall Street 3: Now What?

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there's a thin line between "empowerment of the disenfranchised" and "alienating the passive media-watchers", granted. but yeah we are obviously coming at this from different places and I have a lot of other shit going on, sorry for being snappy.

clown bloc is a great idea, would that make you feel better abt it amateurist? (serious question)

sleeve, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

twitter also reported "1-2-3-4 fuck the bourgeoisie, 5-6-7-8 fuck the bourgeoisie," which made me lol irl

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:34 (1 year ago) Permalink

xxp yeah i understand why it didn't get used in the march, because it would be misread in the way that you did

1staethyr, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

xxp yeah i understand why it didn't get used in the march, because it would be misread in the way that you did

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:38 AM (7 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i am reading it as " "we're here, we're queer, we're anarchists we'll fuck you up"--is there some other way to read it?

if it was supposed to be ironic, keep in mind that irony is context-dependent and no way are most people going to see it this way.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

you guys are so damned condescending BTW (big hoos excepted), you're kind of making my points for me.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

there's also a kind of manicheanism to their sensibility (as i understand it through reading stuff they've said/written--and not in the MSM--and chatting w/ them) that likewise i find deeply troubling.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:27 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think you're right about this too to a point; it's the kind of logic that leads to attacking groups of white supremacists while they have overtly unobtrusive racist meetings in diners, for example. and like, i'm all for "smash racism" and anti-fascist organizing and all that, but when you attack a person because of what they believe in the misguided name of 'revolutionary violence' or whatever, i'm off your bus.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:42 (1 year ago) Permalink

hoos u get any pussy at these things?

dylannn, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:44 (1 year ago) Permalink

it's playing with stereotypes of violent anarchists while also resisting the violence that's constantly directed at queers and subverting the stereotype of queer people as weak targets of violence? honestly i'm sorry if i come off as condescending. i understand that the chant wouldn't translate to most observers.

1staethyr, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

I agree with amateurist re: 'we he're we're clear we're anarchist..." slogan. I can only read it as straight truth or irony, and I can't figure out which is worse.

Just wanted to make sure he wasn't alone.

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

t's playing with stereotypes of violent anarchists while also resisting the violence that's constantly directed at queers and subverting the stereotype of queer people as weak targets of violence? honestly i'm sorry if i come off as condescending. i understand that the chant wouldn't translate to most observers.

Yeah that's pretty dumb.

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

and i do think there's something to the ethical distinction bb types often draw between violence against a window and violence against a person; clearly these ARA guys don't draw that particular distinction.

when fascists and cops are working together in the streets of greece to attack immigrants and the anarchists in hoodies & bandannas are among the few fighting alongside the immigrants in solidarity, it's one thing. if we were to reach that point in this country and my immediate milieu shifted dramatically i might change my thinking, but

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:47 (1 year ago) Permalink

for balance on my part, I don't hate the black blog, I just disagree with certain aspects of their approach. They're more of a problematising element than a straight-up bad one.

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

it's playing with stereotypes of violent anarchists while also resisting the violence that's constantly directed at queers and subverting the stereotype of queer people as weak targets of violence? honestly i'm sorry if i come off as condescending. i understand that the chant wouldn't translate to most observers.

― 1staethyr, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:45 AM (27 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

right, which is why it's not a good thing to be chanting at a highly public, media-saturated rally!

btw i recognize that so far the black bloc stuff has limited itself to property damage rather than hurting people (with a few minor exceptions). but to applaud them for this is itself kind of patronizing, since i don't see the property damage as being efficacious at all (with again, a few minor exceptions). in fact it's incredibly counter-productive.

sorry i feel like we keep going round and round. i apologize for that.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

bloc (lol freudian 2.0 slip)

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah that's pretty dumb.

― Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:46 AM (46 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk man i mean radical queers are among the most militant fight-back types i know, and they say it's precisely because they've been repeatedly attacked in life and are sick of being both victims of violence perpetrated by others and merely defined as victims of violence, and they want it known that if someone comes at them they will fight back rather than be a victim

granted that's a sentiment to fit into a 12 syllable chant

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

(((side issue but: the chant thing reminds me of an issue that comes up re. teaching film and media.

some teachers like to teach what are usefully called "resistant [often willfully ironic] readings"--e.g. seeing "top gun" as a "gay" film. but they also, privately, enjoy feeling superior to their students, who often don't "get" or are themselves resistant to these against-the-grain interpretations/uses. but you can't simultaneously claim something as a "resistant reading" and mock most people for not "getting it.")))

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:51 (1 year ago) Permalink

but to applaud them for this is itself kind of patronizing, since i don't see the property damage as being efficacious at all (with again, a few minor exceptions). in fact it's incredibly counter-productive.

sorry i feel like we keep going round and round. i apologize for that.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:49 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i definitely wasn't saying "good for them for not breaking shit," my point was that "hey look, they didn't even break anything and yet people are still mad at them for basically existing and protecting people, the latter of which is almost never recognized by detractors or discussed in the media"

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:52 (1 year ago) Permalink

i don't think "the latter of which" is a thing people say, is it

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

but to applaud them for this is itself kind of patronizing, since i don't see the property damage as being efficacious at all (with again, a few minor exceptions). in fact it's incredibly counter-productive.

sorry i feel like we keep going round and round. i apologize for that.

― flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:49 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i definitely wasn't saying "good for them for not breaking shit," my point was that "hey look, they didn't even break anything and yet people are still mad at them for basically existing and protecting people, the latter of which is almost never recognized by detractors or discussed in the media"

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:52 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that's probably true. i find it hard to acknowledge the positive contributions since i find their presence and tactics to be counterproductive in the final analysis.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:55 (1 year ago) Permalink

sorry, i guess the disagreement comes from me saying "unfortunately". i personally was excited when people told me about the chant (it wasn't used at any marches afaik, it came from the queer contingent's sign-making and chant-writing party), and i would have felt empowered/excited hearing it coming from a large group of people. it probably wouldn't have been good PR, which makes me kind of sad

xps

1staethyr, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

i respect the sentiment of the radical queers but holy hell is that not the place. nor is it even remotely as clever as they might think it is (if it isn't straight-up serious and they're just *making a point*).

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah that's pretty dumb.

― Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:46 AM (46 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk man i mean radical queers are among the most militant fight-back types i know, and they say it's precisely because they've been repeatedly attacked in life and are sick of being both victims of violence perpetrated by others and merely defined as victims of violence, and they want it known that if someone comes at them they will fight back rather than be a victim

granted that's a sentiment to fit into a 12 syllable chant

― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 12:50 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, this

1staethyr, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 05:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

also i instinctively run away from any notion that the best way to fight a history of violent repression is by saying "we'll beat your ass" so that might be informing my opinion.

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

hoos u get any pussy at these things?

― dylannn, Tuesday, May 22, 2012 5:44 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:13 (1 year ago) Permalink

would like to say that as a queer anarchist dedicated to nonviolence projecting a tough exterior has helped me personally, and that "fuck you up" doesn't need to be interpreted in a strictly literal manner

1staethyr, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:14 (1 year ago) Permalink

how do you think 99% (!) of people are going to interpret that, though?

i mean if some guy wearing clothes that seem a bit weird to you came running up to a group of you and your friends on the street and sad "we're going to fuck you up" what are the chances you will assume he is being lightly ironic and actually invoking a whole history of representation and identity about which you are only dimly aware?

not a perfect analogy but i hope it makes me point.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

i mean i think the question is whether one is seeking to be inviting or not? it seems significant to me that the chant in question was abandoned for the march itself--presumably people there thought it wasn't the right audience for the chant, because they weren't actively trying to alienate people. there are plenty of places where one might want to do that, though! places where one's militancy and right to self defense are being challenged like say, a klan counterprotest.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:23 (1 year ago) Permalink

please refer to my earlier post where i agreed with you that it would not have been a good chant for the protest. sorry for starting this argument.

1staethyr, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

Yeah, in the right context I can see its usefulness, and I'm glad that it was shut down, but it's a stupid idea to be floated in the first place.

Though I'd argue that the only power you get from "fuck you up" is if it's taken in a strictly literal manner. Tough exteriors are only tough if they're backed up by a credible 'toughness'.

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

makes me point.

apparently since the previous post i went to the east end of london and back.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

i mean just speaking as like ~a guy who is short~, which on the totem pole of oppression is somewhere underground near the core of the earth, ~i'd~ feel empowered and stronger if i were part of a bloc doing more confrontational work. i can't imagine what the jump in sense of empowerment might be like for others, but it feels really, really good to hear 1staethyr say that it's meant something & helped.

plz post more <3

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

I would quibble about the way in which that empowerment is achieved but, hey, to each their own.

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:31 (1 year ago) Permalink


best thing i saw on sunday

1staethyr, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

awesome

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah i can get behind that

Fas Ro Duh (Gukbe), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 06:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

cyrptic

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 07:18 (1 year ago) Permalink

lol

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 07:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

this dropped in austin today

fuck yeah

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 07:53 (1 year ago) Permalink

http://growfoodraisehell.tumblr.com/

oh my god this makes me want to go back to austin right now

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 07:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

not that i'm down with everything they're running per se it's just like, yo, people in my hometown having the same convos i'm having, and in public, shit

i was always dimly aware of radical circles in austin and i knew-by-name ppl like the darbyrat who wound up famous eventually but just

ugh makes me miss home

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 07:58 (1 year ago) Permalink

??? their lead image and a bunch of their posts are all about big guns. fuck that.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 08:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

i think we're on different planets honestly. i can't find anything about that blog that doesn't depress me, if for no other reason than the way its framed with all this lifestylish cod-revolutionary iconography. good fucking riddance. i'm off this thread.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 08:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

i mean it's confrontational iconography, and it's not for everyone--i'd hope my condemnation of violence on white supremacists a couple posts ago would make clear i'm not down with guns. there's a 'tumblr whites' vibe to much of the thing--imagery and feeling over specificity and substance, say--and that's pretty across the board with radicals who use that necessarily oblique format, but i don't think the fact that we're coming from different places means we're incapable of communicating.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 08:52 (1 year ago) Permalink

it's just a little

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 08:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

i mean look, i'm not some kinda insurrectionist and don't imagine i'll ever lean that way. and i recognize that this kind of imagery can be deeply alienating to a lot of people. it's not something i'd pass around at the dinner table, so to speak, and i'd work to make sure radical imagery wasn't at the forefront of projects i involved myself with. i think of myself as a communicator first and foremost, and part of getting people to hear you is understanding where you are, understanding where your ostensible listeners are, and then figuring out a way to traverse the distance between you. the kind of stuff on that tumblr isn't gonna bridge that gap for most people including, clearly, you. and that's fine. we can talk in other ways. i hope we can continue to do that.

all i'm saying is that as a texan, it's heartening to see a black flag in the middle of texas.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 09:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

but yeah, i hear that. xp

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 09:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

ok thanks for being reasonable and kind when i'm kind of reacting real viscerally. i guess i just feel like once you head up a tumblr with a shot of a guy wearing a bandana over his face toting a machine gun or whatever you've kind of lost me.

not even as much because i actually think these assholes are going to take up arms and raid the texas state legislature or something but more because they are ignorant adolescent (in mind if not necessarily in years) dipshits.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 09:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

i mean don't thank me, i'm just tryin to keep people talking and acting about the stuff that pisses us all off.

sometimes i forget i'm talking to other people, and i wind up talking to myself & posting stuff that excites me while freaking out other people and maybe maligning people who'd stand with me but condemn tumblrs i like or whatever. which is not what i'm after.

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Tuesday, 22 May 2012 09:08 (1 year ago) Permalink

you're maybe a more generous person to not necessarily react in same way that i do to the imagery in that black. i'm 34 years old and have been off and on active in protest politics since my teens and when i think of all the useless posturing "revolutionaries" i've met in that time i have a hard time mustering up anything but contempt. i was kind of raised this way--my mom has been an activist since the early 1960s (she joined the civil rights movement in college and was registering black folks to vote in mississippi from 1963) and she told me stories of maoists disrupting antiwar rallies. she also thought the weathermen were a bad punchline. ironically b/c she's an activist and educator in chicago she's gotten to know bill ay3rs and we both agree he's mostly a self-absorbed glad-handling charlatan.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 09:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

in that BLOG not black -- i was thinking about "black bloc" and my words got kind of jumbled.

flesh, the devil, and a wolf (wolf) (amateurist), Tuesday, 22 May 2012 09:10 (1 year ago) Permalink


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