Mr. Show with Bob and David: Genius or Overrated?

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o i'll take chappelle show over mr. show easy so that's one sketch show that's better.

j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 23 April 2005 07:44 (9 years ago) Permalink

eh, chapelle's best ideas are great, but there's too much lazy hacky bullshit. "what would happen...if we put a WHITE GUY...in a house...with SEVEN CRAZY BLACK PEOPLE!" bleh.

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Saturday, 23 April 2005 07:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

yes cuz that's what that sketch was about right

j blount (papa la bas), Saturday, 23 April 2005 07:58 (9 years ago) Permalink

sorry, i guess i missed the deep hidden message there.

el sabor de gene (yournullfame), Saturday, 23 April 2005 09:42 (9 years ago) Permalink

I love Mr Show but i think Bob Odenkirk's 'Charles Manson' sketch in the Ben Stiller Show kicks the shit out of any sketch on Mr Show ever.

I like David Cross but there is something smug about him that grates sometimes. I far prefer Bob.

Hari A$hur$t (Toaster), Saturday, 23 April 2005 10:29 (9 years ago) Permalink

Bob Odenkirk's 'Charles Manson' sketch

Oh yes, yes indeed.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 10:32 (9 years ago) Permalink

"I love Mr Show but i think Bob Odenkirk's 'Charles Manson' sketch in the Ben Stiller Show kicks the shit out of any sketch on Mr Show ever."

the one and only sketch on the ben stiller show that reached the heights that mr.show reached regularly. and if he hadn't been able to do it on the stiller show it probably would have ended up on mr.show.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 12:53 (9 years ago) Permalink

it was so glaring on stiller's show cuz nothing else on stiller's show came close to it. whereas, on mr.show it would have fit right in.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 12:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

Mr. Show is the funniest damn thing I've ever seen!

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 12:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

the one and only sketch on the ben stiller show that reached the heights that mr.show reached regularly

*bows in the direction of Mr. Seward, respectfully disagrees*

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 12:55 (9 years ago) Permalink

yeah, ned, it's just another one of those headscratchers with you. i just can't see why you wouldn't find mr.show funny. i mean, they do music skits, they parody sid & marty krofftt,oasis, marching bands, megaphone singers, space racists and the robots who love them. i could go on and on. you must REALLY hate david cross. cuz it was such a loopy and inspired show.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:02 (9 years ago) Permalink

maybe you have to find the phrase "The goat is nature's president!" as funny as i do to really love it. and tofutti breaks.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:04 (9 years ago) Permalink

cuz it was such a loopy and inspired show.

I realized it was trying to be that, but it just...wasn't. At least not constantly, not consistently, though it desperately tried hard (too hard?) to be that, forcing the humor and forcing quotes around 'loopy' and 'inspired' as a result. I saw a whole batch of episodes all at once and then a few here and there since and just...no, sorry, not more than wryly amusing here and there. Not *no* laughs, as I mention above -- Dalai Lama sketch, for instance, a definite winner. But gosh, so much of it could have been edited down, made dryer maybe...yeah, I'm not the guys actually getting up there and creating it all so I should talk, but if I find myself telling the show/sketch/actors to get on with it on a semi-regular basis then it's just not working for me, and listing a whole bunch of references won't convince me, much the same way that the huge list of injokes I can make from MST3K -- which to me just outstrips Mr. Show for laughs still, completely -- isn't going to convince someone who has seen a slew of episodes and just shrugged and moved on.

But yeah, there is the Cross factor. I love Odenkirk in Stiller, he seems dragged down and sprawling in Mr. Show = either Cross is even worse than I imagine him or the camaraderie on Stiller was a perfect secret weapon.

Anyway, Mr. Show doesn't work for me, you think the Kenna album sucks, and yet we are love. :-)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

It's funnier than Arrested Development.

The one about Marijuana is one of the best things I've ever seen, but since every show changes into a million different bits, let me clarify that it's the one that starts off with Dave being high.

There are so many tiny details in Mr. Show to laugh at that most shows wouldn't bother to add. To say that Mr. Show was "trying to be" anything is assuming too much. It *was* a loopy and inspired show and if you see it as "trying to be" such, then I'd say you are projecting. It just is what it is.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:20 (9 years ago) Permalink

it's okay, ned. tears are nature's onions.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:21 (9 years ago) Permalink

It *was* a loopy and inspired show and if you see it as "trying to be" such, then I'd say you are projecting. It just is what it is.

Saying that the show was loopy and inspired because it was loopy and inspired is a bit glib. I don't doubt you like it at all and that you enjoy it very much, so can I ask that you consider the opposite point of view might have been derived from the same basic experience, ie watching the show? As I've had to point out on similar threads before, the very thread *title* invites debate, yes?

I actually didn't have much of a problem with Cross until I saw Mr. Show, to be honest -- I was completely neutral. Now, in combination with other things of his, I am not. Is that projecting or my reaction?

Anyway, onions. Yum!

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:29 (9 years ago) Permalink

Ned, you're so OTM on this whole thread! Thanks!

W i l l (common_person), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:32 (9 years ago) Permalink

did you see the space racist sketch that ends in a benny hill dance with aliens? since you hate cross i'm not even gonna ask you about wicked scepter.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:32 (9 years ago) Permalink

Space Racists sounds familiar, but with a description like that something should leap to mind more readily.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:38 (9 years ago) Permalink

Well, saying it is "trying to be" something it was is wrong, no? Are you trying to be Ned? Loopy and inspiring = offbeat, crazy and innovative, correct? So, yes, it was all those things. Was it "trying to be" those things? I think it was just meant to be funny. Were you there when they were writing the sketches?

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:40 (9 years ago) Permalink

Loopy and inspiring = offbeat, crazy and innovative, correct? So, yes, it was all those things. Was it "trying to be" those things? I think it was just meant to be funny.

You need to get on political TV talk shows.

(More seriously, what part of "I DO NOT THINK THE VAST MAJORITY OF IT WAS ENTERTAINING OR SUCCESSFUL AND THEREFORE SAYING SOMETHING LIKE 'YES, IT WAS ALL THOSE THINGS' FLATLY IS GOING TO MAKE ME GO 'OH RIGHT YOU ARE, I WILL DENY MY OWN EXPERIENCES IN ORDER TO SUIT YOUR REALITY" did you not understand? And why does the final line of your complaint remind me of all those messages Melody Maker used to get and print from aggreived attendees of concerts saying "Were you at the same show I was?!")

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

i'm used to differing with people on ilx about comedy. i don't really have any "taste" when it comes to comedy. i like a lot of it. the good, the bad, and the ugly. heck, i watched an hour of Reba last nite! i love mad t.v. i thought i was gonna get shouted out of the building on one thread for admitting that. i'm not a family guy fan.i still love the simpsons. even now. i like cliche sitcoms. i dunno, mr.show really seemed like a breath of fresh air. it was the last thing i ever taped on my vcr when it was first on in that breathless way that i used to years ago cuz i worried that i would never ever see something again otherwise (pre-dvd madness). i am a big fan of the silly. i always thought that "trying too hard" atmosphere of mr.show was done on purpose. cuz the live stuff was SUPPOSED to resemble people trying desperately to stay on the air and be funny. I liked that live theatre aspect to it.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:45 (9 years ago) Permalink

Heheh, IS NOT GOING TO MAKE ME, etc. ;-) xpost.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:46 (9 years ago) Permalink

meant to type "inspired" not "inspiring"...

All I am saying is that it would make more sense for you to say that this approach to comedy didn't work for you because "it was a little too loopy and inspired to be funny", rather than to say they were "trying to be loopy and inspired but it just... wasn't." Because it was!

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:46 (9 years ago) Permalink

but i never thought the taped sketches had that trying-too-hard quality. they were all written and shot so perfectly.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:46 (9 years ago) Permalink

As one would not say "Sonic Youth is trying to be dissonant but just... isn't."

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:47 (9 years ago) Permalink

Scott, I taped a bunch of the Mr. Show episodes, too and sadly, though I think the show *is* hilarious in a timeless kind of way, the show is not so funny if you've seen the episode once. The loopy & inspired approach of the show is really what makes it funny; the surprise twists, etc. I mean, of course anything is less funny once you've already heard/seen it (except for possibly that Winnebago Man movie floating around the web), but Mr. Show was really all about the surprises! I wish it would come back on the air.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:52 (9 years ago) Permalink

I can still watch the New San Francisco dance number over and over again.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:54 (9 years ago) Permalink

And why does the final line of your complaint remind me of all those messages Melody Maker used to get and print from aggreived attendees of concerts saying "Were you at the same show I was?!

I don't know because they're completely different points. One is about experiencing a show and one is about experiencing the thought process behind-the-scenes of the show.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:55 (9 years ago) Permalink

i'm not a family guy fan

Honestly, I'm not much of one either. It's very easy to see why it's so liked, though -- I think I enjoy it much more as reference source!

i always thought that "trying too hard" atmosphere of mr.show was done on purpose. cuz the live stuff was SUPPOSED to resemble people trying desperately to stay on the air and be funny. I liked that live theatre aspect to it.

I like that explanation! That's a good way to think about it that I honestly hadn't thought of. I don't know if it'll help me see it in a new light but I'll keep it in mind should I run across an episode again in future.

rather than to say they were "trying to be loopy and inspired but it just... wasn't." Because it was!

Lemonade, you are conflating an admittedly more descriptive or at least harder to pin down point -- 'loopy,' which can be both positive or negative, and in this case I used in it a 'yeah, it's 'loopy,' thanks whatever' sense -- with 'inspired,' which is clearly meant to be positive and which I specifically question in terms of how I feel about the show. If you can't accept that there is a difference in connotation then that's your own worry. Otherwise this boils down to:

YOU: "It was inspired!"

ME: "I don't think it was inspired, despite your claiming otherwise."

YOU: "But it was inspired!"

ME: "I agree you think it was inspired, but I don't believe so."

YOU: "But it was inspired!"

ME: *looks for some Sonic Youth to listen to instead*

I am FAR from arguing I'm a perfect arguer on these boards here, as folks like the good Mr. Miccio and Mr. Chow and others have, I think quite rightly, pointed out. But can you see where this is breaking down a bit?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:56 (9 years ago) Permalink

Nope, it WAS loopy and inspired by definition, I believe.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 13:58 (9 years ago) Permalink

One is about experiencing a show and one is about experiencing the thought process behind-the-scenes of the show.

*places Lemonade in scriptwriting session for Mr. Show, in safe sealed suit to protect him from the hot wind emanating from Mr. Cross's mouth*

WRITERS: *write write write argue suggest finalize*

LEMONADE: "It's so inspired!" (*leaves, honestly appreciating and enjoying what has been seen and heard*)

*episode airs, featuring a variety of elements; Ned watches it and happens to find it wanting*

LEMONADE: "Wasn't that inspired?"

NED: "Well, no."

LEMONADE: "IT WAS INSPIRED! YOU CANNOT DESCRIBE IT AS ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE BY DEFINITION IT IS INSPIRED!"

NED: *flips through old Melody Maker to find that one interview with Chris Morris*

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:00 (9 years ago) Permalink

It certainly wasn't a cookie cutter clone comedy sketch show.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:01 (9 years ago) Permalink

Ned, you're script did not address their "trying to be"-ness, which is the point.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:02 (9 years ago) Permalink

your

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:04 (9 years ago) Permalink

Or perhaps you think it was a cookie cutter clone comedy sketch show. In which case, please list the shows that Mr. Show ripped off. If you list Kids In The Hall or Ben Stiller, you need a much more convincing argument.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:06 (9 years ago) Permalink

The words 'inspired' and 'original' are not synonyms.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:09 (9 years ago) Permalink

No, but look: http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=inspired

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:10 (9 years ago) Permalink

well, it was defintitely inspired by python, what with the rolling segues and the general mayhem. so was kids in the hall. nothing wrong with that. steal from the greats.

scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:12 (9 years ago) Permalink

I'd say "innovative" (the word I've used) is a reasonable definition of inspired, since the literal definition is a bit esoteric.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:13 (9 years ago) Permalink

well, it was defintitely inspired by python

See, it WAS inspired! :D

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:14 (9 years ago) Permalink

Yes, you have cohesively proven that Mr. Show is inspired, oh how wrong of me to think it wasn't.

xpost *THANK* you Scott. I fully agree with Scott about the tradition Mr. Show exists in, we disagree over it turned out with said show. He I'm sure finds it inspired and doubtless inspiring, I don't. Etc. etc.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:14 (9 years ago) Permalink

Lemonade, get it through your skull. I don't find the show inspired, offbeat, crazy or innovative. I found it generally tedious, overwritten, forced and shrill. That we disagree is no sin, that you insist on splitting hairs to the root is ridiculous.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:18 (9 years ago) Permalink

I guess it ultimately does go back to Monty Python. So different, in my opinion, but definitely "the same." I still say Mr. Show was inspired, though. I think if you had a bunch of comedians sitting around arguing about it, there would be maybe one comedian out of the bunch that would take Ned's position, but it would probably be a real angry, jealous comedian. Howard Stern, for instance.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:19 (9 years ago) Permalink

Does personal taste not exist except as a function of anger and jealousy? Gimme a break.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:21 (9 years ago) Permalink

Can't objective ideas exist outside of subjective opinions? Gimme a a break.

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:22 (9 years ago) Permalink

(Lemonade, there's this thing called 'radical subjectivity' which I encourage you to search the archives for, though more on ILM.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:23 (9 years ago) Permalink

okay fine I will but I'm guessing I will not like what I find...

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:25 (9 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, as I need to actually get some things done here now that it's about 8:30 and I've been up for an ungodly six hours already, I will leave by noting: I personally find Kevin Shields' music to be awesomely inspired through and through. I do not obsess over its unique originality because it is not and was not created out of thin air, though I find the end result to be something almost beyond my description to convey in terms of what it did and does for me. Chuck Eddy has long been a hater of MBV and finds the results to be extremely uninspired, dull, etc. I have *never* considered Chuck to be angry or jealous of Kevin Shields' reputation, as that would be patently ridiculous.

Lemonade, you may draw what you like from that as you will. I am not asking you to change your way of thinking, believe it or not, but I would like to ask you to consider how mine works.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:29 (9 years ago) Permalink

I was looking for a picture of Joey but couldn't find it...

Anyway, I found this: Does subjectivity really have a place in a serious argument concerning music? and... long drawn out philosophy made simple: I think everyone has an opinion but outside of those opinions all we have are certain words to describe reality objectively. Perhaps "inspired" is too esoteric a word choice to argue a point. I think the show is definitely loopy and has a unique draw that may not appeal to everyone. How's that? Boring? :D

Lemonade Salesman (Eleventy-Twelve), Saturday, 23 April 2005 14:36 (9 years ago) Permalink

Oh definitely, but in my experience (as someone living in the south) it's also true for *anyone* not down with southern evangelical culture. I was raised Catholic and I was told I was a non-Jesus-believing heathen several times as a kid. By adults as well as children.

I cannot host as my wife hates Walker (latebloomer), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 17:47 (2 years ago) Permalink

So, extrapolating from my own experience, I can see why being Jewish in the south (especially in the 70's when Cross grew up there) would be fucking alienating in the extreme and warp your view on religion for a long time.

I cannot host as my wife hates Walker (latebloomer), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 17:50 (2 years ago) Permalink

It's better now, and there's a lot more diversity where I live than there was even 15 years ago, but the South is the South.

I cannot host as my wife hates Walker (latebloomer), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 17:52 (2 years ago) Permalink

have a Catholic uncle who lived in Tennessee his whole life and constantly took shit for it, according to him

Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 17:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never got too much shit for it, but I did get tired of the "Why do you pray to Mary?" questions.

pplains, Tuesday, 1 May 2012 17:55 (2 years ago) Permalink

i had a kid check my head for horns, so i don't care if this guy wants to rant

"in this super-sexy postracial age" (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

??!!

Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

Holy crap, really? When was this?

i love the large auns pictures! (Phil D.), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

junior high

"in this super-sexy postracial age" (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

he didn't really mean anything by it is the thing. just general ignorance.
also me and my sister were regularly told by kids, teachers and kid's parents when we visited their homes that we were going to hell since we hadn't accepted jesus into our lives, both subtly and straight up explicitly

"in this super-sexy postracial age" (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

i remember buying my first car with my parents and it was from a friendly good ol boy and the whole process was great and he was a sweetheart right until we got down to the payment and my dad told him he appreciated working with him on the price and the guy said "well you weren't jewing me down or anything it's alright" and we all got very quiet, he bought my car with the money from my savings bonds and we left. put a damper on the excitement, i tell you what

"in this super-sexy postracial age" (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

so again, i have no issue with this guy bitching about shitkickers; feels like he's within his rights
i made my peace a long time ago with that stuff but i ain't about to tell him what he should and shouldn't be complaining about

"in this super-sexy postracial age" (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

Thing is, it aint even shitkickers he'll go after

Choad of Choad Hall (kingfish), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

david cross hates every single person in the world and thinks its awesome is more the criticism

lag∞n, Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:36 (2 years ago) Permalink


wonder showzen sux tho

"in this super-sexy postracial age" (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:37 (2 years ago) Permalink

wonder showzen sux tho

u mad

Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 1 May 2012 18:39 (2 years ago) Permalink


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