I'd say "no," to the thread title, but not to the concerns raised by it. It's a tricky thing. Picking up on what Mordy said about power, I think comedy can either laugh up or down. (And of course it can sometimes be hard to tell which is which -- just ask Dave Chappelle.) What's most transgressive about comedy -- like, say, the first Eminem album -- is often also what's most brutal about it, and that brutality is most effective when it's least conveniently or even consciously aimed. See also the entire run of South Park, obviously. Does South Park subvert anything, or does it just reify existing power structures? The problem is that that question is always going to miss something essential about what makes comedy work. Funny South Park episodes aren't really more politically or socially defensible than lousy South Park episodes, they're just funnier.
Which doesn't answer the question, obviously.
― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:27 (1 year ago) Permalink
what is more conservative dreams or comedy
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
i guess jonathan swift would make swift work of this thread question
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:28 (1 year ago) Permalink
xp whoa
btw every time I see live comedy I basically feel like I am watching someone have a nervous breakdown on stage, I can't really do it anymore
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
i hate how defending my dumb thread idea is going to force me to criticize all these things i like, like Louie.
No, but you're right. And that's the thing: there really isn't any comedy I can think of in the popular consciousness that isn't at least a little conservative. It's just a matter of degrees, and all of the degrees are worthy of criticism.
― Bob Bop Perano (Deric W. Haircare), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
funny dreams for sure the most radical. unfunny reality sometimes the most conservative but also funny.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
Humor has and always will be a reactionary force.
isn't the way that humor allows us to discuss and laugh about things that generally aren't allowed as serious topics a kinda radical element?
No. Humor acts as a mechanism of release and pacification. Energy that is potentially directed towards dismantling the existing power structure is used up in counterproductive emotions such as "laughter".
To be humorless is a necessary precondition for creating a better world.
― Banaka™ (banaka), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:29 (1 year ago) Permalink
I recently reread a bio of Will Gaines, which I had read in my teens and it lead me to idolize the dude and early MAD as the unparalleled liberal iconoclasts. Which, of course they weren't. They basically wouldn't hire female humorists, wouldn't allow wives on the legendary and exorbitant annual staff international vacations, used racial slurs, made horrible (and unfunny) jokes at the expense of Prohias and Aragones for their ethnicity, etc. All a reminder that one must not have too much love for heroes, who are fallible, including my favorites such as Tina Fey.
― Word of Wisdom Robots (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
omg am i banaka?
xp
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
hey banaka, knock knock
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:30 (1 year ago) Permalink
banaka, i am sorry but you are wrong. laughter will be the song we sing as our consciousnesses are uploaded to the singularity. u didn't get the memo?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
for real i think this used to bother me more when i was a self-styled revolutionary. it's probably a naive way to think about social change.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:31 (1 year ago) Permalink
satire can be sort of conservative i guess. if everything is worthy of ridicule and scorn then why do anything differently than we do now? feel like this is often the case with british satirical humour. if you skewer everything then the subtext is to just keep going with the status quo. though you could probably get into a whole class thing about the kind of people who make comedy in britain, which is just boring imo.
― zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
the joke that the universe is cold + empty + meaningless > the revolutionary joke so i guess the question is whether the void is conservative or not
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:32 (1 year ago) Permalink
see my thing about "humorless" is that it's often slung at people who actually understand the machinations of humor (usually better than the people lobbing the accusation in the first place)
― yorba linda carlisle (donna rouge), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:33 (1 year ago) Permalink
doctors who understand farts better than I do can be humorless ime
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
targeted satire isn't, though, is it? i am just thinking of "a modest proposal" here. it's some next-level imagining a worse world to invoke a better one.
xxxp
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
i think humorless tends to apply to ppl who take themselves seriously
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:34 (1 year ago) Permalink
I fart a lot tho, like all the time, people tell me about it all the time, like I fart more than most people
I think a more interesting model than swift for this convo would be rabelais but then again idk
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah but not always xp
― yorba linda carlisle (donna rouge), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
in day to day life isn't the funniest person often the most irreverent one?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:35 (1 year ago) Permalink
i am often called humorless when i bring this up in real life tbh. but that's p accurate.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
I know from personal experience that there is a big diff between being actually funny as a craft and getting lols because you are in a serious situation and willing to say the most dumbshit thing available.
― Word of Wisdom Robots (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
― horseshoe
yes, well this is the other side of the coin obv. satire can be qutie deliberately aimed at something and may be the opposite of conservative in any cases.
― zverotic discourse (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:36 (1 year ago) Permalink
maybe 'comedy' is the art and 'humor' is the discourse? xp
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:37 (1 year ago) Permalink
didn't gabbneb have a *point of view* on comedy v. humor?
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
it wasn't what you just said, at any rate, Mordy; i am just free associatin
making jokes at a funeral is kinda sublime, esp if you are humiliated and frightened as you speak
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:38 (1 year ago) Permalink
tbh i think the world we live in pushing people to situate every fucking thing and idea and joke and object in the world on a left/right political spectrum is in and of itself kind of horrible and destructive, which is either why i should leave this thread alone or post more, i don't know
― kitty shayme (some dude), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
Some of the recent revisiting of the Beastie Boys got at this -- we were all really happy that they turned out to be such enlightened dudes, but otoh it wasn't being enlightened dudes that made them fun -- and funny -- in the first place.
― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Monday, May 14, 2012 10:35 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
ooh la la!
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:39 (1 year ago) Permalink
j/k tell me about french humor!
can we talk about this guy?
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
― kitty shayme (some dude), Monday, May 14, 2012 10:39 PM (31 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i don't really mean "conservative" like Fox News, fwiw, al. then again, i don't really know what i do mean.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:40 (1 year ago) Permalink
i guess i mean "deeply rooted in/committed to the world as it is"
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
conservative: the dark impulse in humanity to call forth totalitarianism? that's a kinda of death drive.
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
reactionary?
― Word of Wisdom Robots (Abbbottt), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:41 (1 year ago) Permalink
which, when it comes to race and gender can be troubling
xp yeah and reactionary might have been better
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:42 (1 year ago) Permalink
― Mordy, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:31 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
The "singularity" as popularly depicted is a technolibertarian fantasy. We are cyber-collectivists.
As we said, "humor" acts a release/pacification tool, a much more insidious opiate than even "religion".
When our goals are achieved, there will be no need for either.
― Banaka™ (banaka), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:42 (1 year ago) Permalink
if i can't laugh i want no part of your cyber-collectivist revolution
― Mordy, Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
yeah and reactionary might have been better
Was just going to say that! Because in some literal sense comedy is reactionary, it's built around reactions to disruption.
― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
So OTM it should be printed on a tshirt and distributed to every practitioner of comedy, professional or otherwise.
― Bob Bop Perano (Deric W. Haircare), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:43 (1 year ago) Permalink
comedy is ENTIRELY reactionary i think.
― jesus christ (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:44 (1 year ago) Permalink
at least if we're talking performative comedy
― jesus christ (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:45 (1 year ago) Permalink
But I think what you do with the reactions, how you channel them, makes a big difference in what kind of comedy it is.
― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:48 (1 year ago) Permalink
bullshit. xxp
Of course if "comedy" is confined to either live mainstream stand-up or sitcoms, that might be true.
― World Congress of Itch (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
― Mordy, Tuesday, May 15, 2012 3:43 AM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Then the "joke" is on you. There are more "fulfilling" (for lack of a better word) states of being than "joy" "humor" "fun" etc. etc.
Why must humanity be reduced to such a limited emotional palette? Can we not better than we are?
― Banaka™ (banaka), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:49 (1 year ago) Permalink
btw being funny in a real-life situation IS NOT comedy
― World Congress of Itch (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 15 May 2012 02:50 (1 year ago) Permalink
Is the class itself a target?
I'd say in Rickles comedy everyone is the target. it's very meanspirited but in an oddly magnanimous "hey EVERYBODY is a joke" way. not defending all of his material cuz he definitely worked racist/sexist, but I do think there was something genuinely appealing in his "I am an equal opportunity offender" schtick.
― Shameful Dead Half Choogle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:44 (9 months ago) Permalink
american standup comedy was invented by airplanes btw
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
airplanes and spendthrift women iirc
― horseshoe, Friday, 17 August 2012 17:45 (9 months ago) Permalink
but I will say, from what we know about early western comedy, it seems to have been mainly about laughing at the misfortune of others?
seem to recall taking some shit somewhere (probably some other thread) where I made the broadly reductive assertion that all comedy was based on either the suffering of other people or nonsense/non-seuquiturs
― Shameful Dead Half Choogle (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
but I will say, from what we know about early western comedy, it seems to have been mainly about laughing at the misfortune of others? and sometimes about upending the privileged, but there are plenty of laughs had at the expense of eg slaves, too - and I think "finding amusement in the misfortune of others" is maybe inherently conservative?
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, August 17, 2012 12:40 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
cutting against this is that the "lol slaves" bits of these pieces were the only points where non-aristo, non-heroic life was even depicted?
― goole, Friday, 17 August 2012 17:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
an airplane walks into a bar
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:46 (9 months ago) Permalink
why the long wings asks the bartender
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
Haha also if comedy is essentially conservative then why are conservatives SO TERRIBLE at telling jokes?
― Andrew Farrell, Friday, 17 August 2012 17:47 (9 months ago) Permalink
good question, they're long, but, you know, they sure are tired, replies the airplane
this is my favorite dylan song, says the airplane
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
mine too, says the bartender, mine too
then in Shakespeare you get a panoply of fools and low lifes who on the page delight in words but on stage also indulge in an awful lot of the slapstick and pratfalls of Roman comedy.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:48 (9 months ago) Permalink
http://archive.org/details/laughteranessay00berggoog
here it is
Laughter: An Essay on the Meaning of the ComicHenri Bergson
― catbus otm (gbx), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:49 (9 months ago) Permalink
the comic consists in there being "something mechanical encrusted on the living"
― catbus otm (gbx), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:53 (9 months ago) Permalink
gbx your post just reminded me that if anyone is interested in this subject and hasn't read hugh kenner's book The Counterfeiter's they should, it doesn't function as an all around deal, but it gets at a lot of what max wanted out of a piece or w/e
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:56 (9 months ago) Permalink
the whole buster keaton part is great, the rest is too, it is very dry and wonderful
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:57 (9 months ago) Permalink
whoah, gross, get it off
― contenderizer, Friday, 17 August 2012 17:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
^^^lolz
― catbus otm (gbx), Friday, 17 August 2012 17:59 (9 months ago) Permalink
there's a spark in yr hair!!
― catbus otm (gbx), Friday, 17 August 2012 18:00 (9 months ago) Permalink
I don't think that's the case - cf Horace especially re: his dad but maybe that's what you mean. Horace's satires are so gentle that to call them "comedy" is stretching a little imo
― steven fucking tyler (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 17 August 2012 18:09 (9 months ago) Permalink