also re: the occupation of the uc' those actions were carried out by grad students (recently) and undergrads (in the case of free speech movement)
the grad students were taking a collective stand as workers at that institution and basically striking at their workplace.
the FSM students were asserting that since sproul plaza was a designated public student space in a public school they had the right to free speech in that space (much flimsier claim imo)
traveling cross country to occupy wall street strikes me (hee hee)less a strike-type action and more of an act of conscience like chaining yourself to the gates of a nurse bomber base.
while i certainly applaud the bravery of these acts i don't think banking per se is as morally indefensible as mutual assured destruction and i think a lot of people are happy that things like banks and investment and retirement funds exist
― the late great, Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:37 (eleven years ago) link
feel like I took a load of shit for arguing this exact point last year― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:33 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:33 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
tbh i was one of the ones with a short-sighted ALL THE DEMANDS boner, so mea culpa
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:38 (eleven years ago) link
nuclear bomber base
― the late great, Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:38 (eleven years ago) link
haha i was confused
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:42 (eleven years ago) link
iirc norman mailer said in armies of the night that the desire to fight back was just the secret desire to be a cop
― the late great, Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:42 (eleven years ago) link
lol
I hate norman mailer
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:44 (eleven years ago) link
i don't think banking per se is as morally indefensible as mutual assured destruction and i think a lot of people are happy that things like banks and investment and retirement funds exist― the late great, Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:37 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― the late great, Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:37 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
right i mean even most anarchists i know aren't opposed to banking as such, proudhon's Big Idea was basically a credit union financed with taxes on large businesses.
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:47 (eleven years ago) link
well i see you agree with me on the tent city thing and i agree with you on occupation to some extent, i mean tienamen square is probably the bravest thing i've witness in my lifetime and the pentagon sit-in and subsequent hunger strike in prison (daniel berrigan led iirc) detailed in armies of the night always moves me to tears, also very impressed w/ the british antinuclear movement of the 80s
but yeah anyway i went to one OWS thing in San Diego and the vibe was more burning man than anything else
I remember protesting at the rnc in 96 (San Diego) dancing w some dude dressed as a giant cigarette, those were the days
― the late great, Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:52 (eleven years ago) link
afaict you hate everything but arthur magazine shakey
― the late great, Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:53 (eleven years ago) link
pay closer attention
― Roger Barfing (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:56 (eleven years ago) link
nah i'm good
― the late great, Thursday, 10 May 2012 23:58 (eleven years ago) link
at the RNC there was a roped-off "protest zone" we were content to sit in, i guess my generation was just pretty complacent compared to yours hoos, what can i say it was the clinton years and i guess we just figured the bush era was behind us!
― the late great, Friday, 11 May 2012 00:00 (eleven years ago) link
― the late great, Thursday, May 10, 2012 11:52 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 11 May 2012 00:00 (eleven years ago) link
i guess my generation was just pretty complacent compared to yours hoos, what can i say it was the clinton years
haha i remember in 2004 i was mad kerry lost in part bcz it robbed me of the opportunity to prove my radicalism by protesting a DEMOCRATIC president
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 11 May 2012 00:01 (eleven years ago) link
the night before the election me and my socialist friends had pledged to lead an antiwar march through the quad NO MATTER WHO WINS
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 11 May 2012 00:04 (eleven years ago) link
i think it was literally mr butts from doonesbury and iirc correctly he was all over the place that year, think somebody on the ticket had big tobacco connections?
― the late great, Friday, 11 May 2012 00:05 (eleven years ago) link
as weird radical extralegal ultraparticipatory communitarian social experiments the camps were useful inasmuch as they helped burn away the crust of alienation and disconnection that decades of corporate rule builds around one's civic sense; as protest they were eventually pretty inert, i guess. but they were always full of people planning/executing protests outside their borders. and they provided something to point cameras at 24/7. which eventually became a liability, of course.
― their private gesture for bison (difficult listening hour), Friday, 11 May 2012 00:13 (eleven years ago) link
they helped burn away the crust of alienation and disconnection that decades of corporate rule builds around one's civic sense
defffffffffff
i think this is true but can sometimes forget
thx for the remindner
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Friday, 11 May 2012 00:31 (eleven years ago) link
http://i.imgur.com/M7SRe.jpg
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 12 May 2012 03:31 (eleven years ago) link
^ proud of having spent 4 minutes on this btw
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 12 May 2012 05:07 (eleven years ago) link
the nurses union + tom morello rally is back on at Daley after a stink was raised
http://www.nationalnursesunited.org/press/entry/chicago-mayor-emanuel-agrees-to-let-nurses-rally-in-daley-plaza/#.T62rtbEGEKY.facebook
'resist the G8 chicago' shared w/status "mayor 1% just blinked. don't fuck with nurses."
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 12 May 2012 05:08 (eleven years ago) link
I was really happy to hear about that
― Steve Youngblood (dan m), Saturday, 12 May 2012 05:11 (eleven years ago) link
i think a lot of people are happy that things like banks and investment and retirement funds exist
Until they're wiped out by corrupt speculation, of course.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want to "smash the state" entirely bcz I know I'll be eating dog food if I make it to 70, stateless.
Reform, as beautiful as a rock in a cop's face.
― World Congress of Itch (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 12 May 2012 05:18 (eleven years ago) link
right i mean my mantra, rather than 'smash the state' tends to be 'supersede the state' precisely bcz "hey congrats you smashed the state, now wtf are you gonna do about the lady across the street who's been relying on social security checks to buy groceries"
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 12 May 2012 05:21 (eleven years ago) link
of course, of course
― the late great, Saturday, 12 May 2012 05:33 (eleven years ago) link
jesus said "no usury" not "no loans"
and i mean "supersede" imo implies a shit ton more legwork and internal "figuring our shit out" than "smash" but that's worth it i think
― BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 12 May 2012 05:37 (eleven years ago) link
First protest activity in Chicago around this weekend's NATO meeting--rushing the building that houses Obama HQ:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/natosummit/chi-protesters-march-outside-obama-campaign-headquarters-20120514,0,86274.story
― caro's johnson (Eazy), Monday, 14 May 2012 15:12 (eleven years ago) link
― the late great, Saturday, May 12, 2012 1:33 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Well I don't know what the definition of usury was in biblical times, but in european christendom it literally meant the charging of any interest at all. Without interest, you basically don't have loans.
― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 15:19 (eleven years ago) link
There are also things that are effectively loans but avoid the letter of the law on interest: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/realestate/07nati.html
― s.clover, Monday, 14 May 2012 15:23 (eleven years ago) link
Sure, there's a whole discipline of "Islamic Finance" designed to get around things like anti-usury religious laws.
― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 15:25 (eleven years ago) link
Of course it's very much a technicality -- the borrower will (likely) pay the same amount over the purchase price over the lifetime of the islamic loan. Actually I wonder if the banks might charge even more for it.
― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 15:27 (eleven years ago) link
God bless the Catholic Workers.
― World Congress of Itch (Dr Morbius), Monday, 14 May 2012 15:32 (eleven years ago) link
well you do have loans w/o interest, there was an interesting article i read awhile back by an anthropologist who was talking about how evidence pointed to credit predating currency, giving loans is a form of insurance. if you have capital just sitting around doing nothing you're inclined to loan it out because you don't know if you might need to collect on it in the future
so like picture two tribes meeting to trade. one's got furs and skins and the other's got dried meats. suppose the meat tribe shows up empty handed one summer, what's the other tribe going to do? stockpile the furs in a cave where they might rot? no, they'll just hand off the furs w/ the understanding that they'll get paid back in the future, because you'd rather have the promise of more meat next summer than a pile of useless furs sitting around.
― the late great, Monday, 14 May 2012 15:40 (eleven years ago) link
also in european christendom there *were* loans so i don't know what you're talking about hurting
― the late great, Monday, 14 May 2012 15:41 (eleven years ago) link
my understanding of medieval xtianity is filtered through lutheran disapproval, but my understanding is that the prohibition on usury just meant the church could hit up anybody working in finance for penance
― goole, Monday, 14 May 2012 15:44 (eleven years ago) link
There were loans in european christendom, and they were at interest.
― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 15:47 (eleven years ago) link
― the late great, Monday, May 14, 2012 11:40 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Sure. But money doesn't "rot" the way furs do. You are better off with it sitting your own coffers at no risk than lending it out to someone at zero interest with the risk of never getting some or all of it back. Plus you may be able to find some more "productive" use of the money.
― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 15:51 (eleven years ago) link
"by an anthropologist ... credit predating currency" - are you talking about Graeber & 'Debt'?
― boxall, Monday, 14 May 2012 15:55 (eleven years ago) link
yes thank you
now you're going to tell me he's already been completely discredited
― the late great, Monday, 14 May 2012 16:16 (eleven years ago) link
i don't know how much you're risking when you're lending it to your own serfs or the dude in the shop next door. this is a much less mobile and dispersed society we're talking about.
also doesn't it create social ties and to some extent indenture people to you?
― the late great, Monday, 14 May 2012 16:18 (eleven years ago) link
re: Graeber, you can click 'show all', ctrl-f and decide for yourself, he's been discussed at length since he helped organize what became OWS.
― boxall, Monday, 14 May 2012 16:22 (eleven years ago) link
from what i've heard he sounds pretty legit
― the late great, Monday, 14 May 2012 16:23 (eleven years ago) link
<3 graeber but what do i know
― good men like my father, or president truman (difficult listening hour), Monday, 14 May 2012 16:25 (eleven years ago) link
You are always risking that the person won't have the money to pay you back. But yes, sure, you can have small-scale loans in close-knit communities without the interest. This still occurs in even the most capitalistic families in the modern west among family members (one of Graeber's big ideas iirc is that mini-versions of alternative economic systems almost always exist within dominant economic systems -- we always have capitalism and communism to greater and lesser degrees, etc.). Part of the idea is that, yes, someday in the future, you might get a loan from that person, or some other favor. Or there's just a general social duty or obligation. What you're not going to have is a system where you're neighbor can loan you $300,000 to buy a house, because your neighbor will never have the $300,000 available (just like you won't either unless you save for, IDK, 15-30 years). A bank will, but it will want interest or some other compensation for loaning the money to a stranger at some risk and for tying up their capital. There are non-profit models of this, like credit unions, but they still require interest.
― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 16:28 (eleven years ago) link
What you're CERTAINLY never going to have (or at least I don't see an answer in Graeber's way of thinking -- maybe there is someone who has one) is an interest-free means of financing larger business operations. That means "bad" stuff like oil and investment banking but also good stuff like solar energy innovation and the internet.
― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 16:31 (eleven years ago) link
we were talking about european christendom and rome, remember?
in modernity usury means excessive or unfair interest
― the late great, Monday, 14 May 2012 16:33 (eleven years ago) link
In european christendom loans at interest continued to exist in spite of usury laws, just in ways that got around the prohibition in one way or another, e.g. Jews made loans because they were not governed by the church.
― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 16:37 (eleven years ago) link
― the late great, Monday, May 14, 2012 11:16 AM (47 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i think he's got in some online scraps that made him look bad, but that's it. like, quibbles about his characterization of certain things or ignoring contrary evidence here and there, and he responded in a "see how the machine of empire mobilizes to silence me!!" kind of mode
but that's my third-hand take obv, still have not read 'debt'
― goole, Monday, 14 May 2012 17:07 (eleven years ago) link
he posts extensively in the comments threads to reviews of his book on amazon. Which doesn't really credit or discredit him, just sort of funny.
― Scott, bass player for Tenth Avenue North (Hurting 2), Monday, 14 May 2012 17:09 (eleven years ago) link