Kenny Dalglish Won't Be Delivering the Module: English Premiership 2011-12

not a scouser or LFC fan so I don't comment on RH at LFC but I think it's a pity if that brief period at LFC is viewed as main thing about RH's career -- though, OK, they are the biggest job he has done, save possibly Inter.

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:01 (1 year ago) Permalink

as an outsider, I didn't have any problem at all with Hodgson's stoical statements during the LFC period
LFC fans seemed to, though.

I don't identify with the vitriol because, strange to say, I am not vitriolic about eg Ramos, Graham, Francis, Christian Gross. I kind of like every Tottenham manager, for being Tottenham manager - see them as one of us, to a degree.

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:04 (1 year ago) Permalink

whereas D-Mac doesn't even like Jol!

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:05 (1 year ago) Permalink

i'm untainted by club allegiance, yes!

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:06 (1 year ago) Permalink

Very funny, I agree...or is it?

If you think of it in the broader context, this is another dig by the FA at Liverpool FC, a figurative slap in the face and a clear indication of the prejudice we (the club) were up against during the Evra FArce...'how dare we sack a nice Establishment man like Roy?!...those Scousers, they're absolute scallies, a disgrace to English football and need to be taught a lesson at the earliest opportunity!'.

Which didn't take too long in coming....

― caek, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

is that from RAWK

― Number None, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

yes, booming thread http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=292843.0

― caek, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:12 (1 year ago) Permalink

yawn

― Chris, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

i mean the 'no worse than latter day benitez' thing is nonsense mate. did you actually watch hodgson's liverpool week in week out? rafa's worst was about a million times more desirable than hodgson's best, and no that's not some blind faith in benitez shit either. i wasn't over the moon about hodsgon getting the job but i gave him a chance and was actually impressed with him early on. but he brought the vitriol on himself with the negative shite he came out with and the dour football. utopia to beat everton? fuck off. northampton formidable? fuck off a bit more you prick. that's not making the fans realise hicks and gillette were nasty and we should be grateful for winning a derby, a fixture that we've actually won a few times, it was defeatist bollocks.

― Chris, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

hodgson gave it straight even when the fans didn't want to hear it

that's the kindest interpretation of all his dumb deluded interviews i've ever read.

― ooooiiiioooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaoooooh un - bi - leevable! (LocalGarda), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

deems otm in general, sloppy with the particulars

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:31 (1 year ago) Permalink

i've been drinking since three tbf

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

he wasn't even giving it straight. he was shifting the goalposts and lowering expectations to mask his inadequacies, selling wins against bolton and trabzonspor as 'famous victories'. fuck off.

― Chris, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:32 (1 year ago) Permalink

warhol reference, shows erudition

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

Just saw Terry's celebration from today. Ugh

― Number None, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:38 (1 year ago) Permalink

after getting walloped by everton he said it was their best performance of the season. he talked himself into the sack at lfc.

― ooooiiiioooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaoooooh un - bi - leevable! (LocalGarda), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

rafa guaranteeing fourth didn't make anything better, and i'd say lowering expectations was a fair strategy given the position.

Genuinely cannot see how anyone could claim that hodgson's terrible football differed from benitez's terrible football. Dalglish's lfc play much better but not to much greater effect, but that's by-the-by. My ridiculous bias against benitez fuels my stanning for hodgson, but i think it's fair to note the same and opposite effect also.

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:39 (1 year ago) Permalink

like I say - I don't think RH did very well at LFC - but I don't get the vitriol, the level of anger that endures, cos I have never felt that way about a Tottenham manager. And LFC have moved on.

Maybe LFC fans would say they are a bigger club with higher expectations than us and that is why.

BBC site: 'broadsheet' - OK - but a depressing conclusion:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/england/17890094

The Daily Telegraph's football correspondent Henry Winter fully expects Hodgson's appointment to be confirmed but says there will be doubts from some quarters about him getting the job.

"I think there will be a lot of doubts among the England fans," he told BBC Radio 5 live.

"Personally, I think he is a decent choice. I would certainly back him, certainly now that it is clear the FA has turned away from Harry Redknapp.

"I've interviewed Hodgson down the years and he is a very deep thinker. One way of summing him up is that he is a broadsheet man in a tabloid world. He is almost a professor type character when people want soundbites and players want short team-talks.

"So, he is going to have to change his style of management and style of news conference if he is going to succeed in the job."

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

i mean are you really saying rafa or dalglish give it the unvarnished truth in the media, or is their rubbish more palatable than hodgson's by dint of fuelling the unjustified expectations and paranoia that seem at times to matter more than reality to a sizeable section of the lfc fanbase? i think hodgson viewed that bubble as something to be dealt with before the club could be run the way he wanted it to be run, but he underestimated how hard the fans would cling to it tbh. By the end he was probably trolling that section, but i'm not gonna cast the first stone there.

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:45 (1 year ago) Permalink

my point is that rafa's worst season still produced excellent football against the likes of man utd and atletico madrid, and we won a number of our home games emphatically - there were still positives and things to build on. roy's best? i'm struggling. beating chelsea at home with 11 men behind the ball for 90 minutes? yeah that was probably it.

― Chris, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

imagine being a henry winter in a martin samuel world

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:46 (1 year ago) Permalink

anyway i like hodgson very much, and don't think he deserves the england job.

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

actually I had impression that LFC 2-0 CFC was a really good performance, just from radio and highlights

Winter is probably a nasty person, like the tabloid hacks? but I don't think Hayward is; he is into fan consortiums, etc

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:48 (1 year ago) Permalink

I suppose a question is, how unpleasant is this going to be for Hodgson?
like DM, I like RH so much that I don't want him to do something that is hurtful to him
but, it's a lot of money - maybe.

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

hodgson was a naive idiot with the press when in charge of lfc. what a manager says is tied to the results at a given time, and hodgson came out with rambling insane rubbish most of the time. dalglish or rafa may have come out with partisan or ott bullshit, but hodgson's interviews were distinct from that in their jaw-dropping stupidity and ignorance of how fans think and of the games they related to.

this now doesn't matter but it should be fairly funny when he starts waffling on about england without a care in the world and gets swiftly ditched.

― ooooiiiioooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaoooooh un - bi - leevable! (LocalGarda), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

like I say - I don't think RH did very well at LFC - but I don't get the vitriol, the level of anger that endures

i don't like hodgson because he treated us like fools and because he lied about benitez by saying he treated dalglish like shit. fuck off roy.

― Chris, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:50 (1 year ago) Permalink

the broadsheet/tabloid binary doesn't really exist for sports journalism, since hayward and samuel don't seem drastically different writing between the two

which is to say, it does exist since the sun is resolutely grotty, but the daily mail is a 'broadsheet' for football purposes

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:52 (1 year ago) Permalink

I hope it's a lot of money.

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:55 (1 year ago) Permalink

only in the world of football is someone who has read a book that doesn't have an accompanying blockbuster automatically "a deep thinker"

― ooooiiiioooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaoooooh un - bi - leevable! (LocalGarda), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

martin samuel is supposedly being paid £400,000 shiny rothermere shillings per annum

hodgson, an order of magnitude more i imagine

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 22:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

rafa fits iago better than woy imo, but we're never going to sway each other on it. benitez often let players and other employees take unfair flak for his poor decisions.

t/s woy's most insane press meet vs rafa's or kk's?

woy's biggest whopper of a mistruth vs rafa's or kk's?

worst waste of money? worst pr disaster? worst run of results?

Or just base it all on 'worst at peddling the line that we're about to turn a magical corner and everyone is against us'?

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:00 (1 year ago) Permalink

surprising discord

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:02 (1 year ago) Permalink

Hodgson has read, I think, something like the whole of Bellow and Roth.

I'm not sure about that but I think I have seen it stated in print. Or even if he hasn't, let's say half of each author's work - which is thousands and thousands of pages.

I don't know very many people who have done that.

I don't, myself, think RH is a deep thinker. But he is well read, unusually eloquent, and multilingual, which, as I suggested upthread, is an intellectual achievement in itself.

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:02 (1 year ago) Permalink

Why anyone would care so fervently about managers putting 'spin' on their results in the media is really beyond me.

― boxall, Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

i don't really think roy's as terrible a human being as i'm making out. he does seem decent, and he's a good manager obv. just ya know, handle with care.

― Chris, Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

kenny dalglish prefers to elide results totally and concentrate on the sterling work of liverpool's commercial negotiators

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:07 (1 year ago) Permalink

He is almost a professor type character when people want soundbites and players want short team-talks.

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Hodgson at Liverpool was a mess. As much as I like being a contrarian when it comes to that club and its supporters, you can't help but admit it. I remember watching that team play a weak Villa and get absolutely played off the park. They seemed so lost. But it wasn't just Hodgson's fault. The near-bankruptcy board problems have seemingly been forgotten and which is something he won't have at England. He also won't have to pick apart a failed squad of Rafael Benetiz (although adding Konchesky to them wasn't exactly a wise decision.) Oh and his reign started with the court trial of his captain beating someone up in a nightclub.

Liverpool seemed like such a mess on all fronts that I give him the benefit of the doubt. He has had a decent career elsewhere. He rebuilt Inter and made it to a European final with them, iirc. He did the same with Fulham. His WBA side plays with poise and depending on the form of their more exciting players, can be a joy to watch.

He also has previous managing countries and is coming into the spot when the Sun and their savagesreaders view whoever takes the job with about as much sympathy as their ever going to get. Expectations aren't high. Everyone knows England are a mess and that the boat needs to be steadied first and foremost. I don't expect Woy to do any of this 'pick Paul Scholes' 'Arry wackiness. I expect realisation that we are Grant Holt country until someone works out ways otherwise.

Everyone has picked up on his intelligence and respectable oldmanness. 'Arry was never the guy to sort out English football. The media wanted him because the inevitable fall would be a delicious story. No-one in the immediate future is going to win anything with England, failure is the only option. But Woy seems like he could use his wise elder statesman bit to get somethings to change. He might actually look into youth player development, for example, or try to get the Premiership people to stop trying to take a massive dump in the mouths of the Lower Leagues.

― Thoughts? You must have loads. (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:24 (1 year ago) Permalink

there is this element to the story that I keep coming back to, namely ...

the fact that it has surprised everyone / upset their narrative / no one saw it coming
it all gets rationalized in retrospect - 'the FA want someone who lives near St George's Park' - but I have never read that as criterion before (though I have heard HR on south coast as a problem)

there is this weird way that 'football people' turn out to have been very ignorant about what was going on
while talking constantly like they knew what was going on (cf Shearer, Hansen, asked about Redknapp any time in last year or so?)

but they don't then reassess and admit flaws in their (systems) thinking and think about better ways of gathering and assessing information, or not talking BS in future.

and future problem = the fact that this was unexpected may create 'media narrative' vs Hodgson, 'should have been Redknapp' etc - bad for England, probably

(seems like I am suddenly an England fan again if RH gets the post)

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

i agree, i think wrongfooting the media narrative is a bad way to start. Their backing would have been a positive for redknapp.

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:33 (1 year ago) Permalink

i suppose i still won't watch england and generally would rather they continued to fail, but insofar as possible i hope hodgson is saved from the worst excesses of the vermin at the sun

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:37 (1 year ago) Permalink

i want to see him parading the world cup around anfield tbqfh

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:40 (1 year ago) Permalink

he could win the world cup with say, belgium in 2014

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:43 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah, even better obv, or us.

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:44 (1 year ago) Permalink

D-mac, to be honest McClaren had media backing to start with!

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

(why 'TBH' I don't know. just a fact I think)

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:49 (1 year ago) Permalink

well it won't save you, but it's haf a start to a fair go at justified failure.

― diafiyhm (darraghmac), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:52 (1 year ago) Permalink

the sun piece is predictably graceless and spiteful

A manager, though, who is not quite so comfortable with strong-minded, independent top-flight internationals

OUR BRAVE BOYS

― Ms Tum-Bla-Wi-Tee (nakhchivan), Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

'strong-minded, independent'

EBJT, Lampard, Cole.
Hart, R Ferdinand, Rooney

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:56 (1 year ago) Permalink

wait, what did Hart do?

― Number None, Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

I am sick of the capacity of these tosser players to dictate and undermine things - they probably don't have any interest in what the manager says, if it's not Fergie or Mourinho

agree, Hart hasn't done anything specially bad yet but does seem very arrogant and 'untouchable' and is at richest club in world

― the pinefox, Sunday, 29 April 2012 23:59 (1 year ago) Permalink