People Who Live In Suburbs: Classy, Icky, or Dudes?

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kids in the suburbs my parents live in don't ride bikes anymore, they ride razor scooters with gas engines

dayo, Thursday, 19 April 2012 14:42 (2 years ago) Permalink

as a former kid, that neighborhood sounds awesome.

pplains, Thursday, 19 April 2012 14:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

That's very interesting

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

That article fails to make any clear distinction between and all zoning laws as a broad category, and a few, very particular types of zoning laws which tend to segregate neighborhoods by income. Removing all zoning laws would create chaos of a sort that no city could cope with or plan for. Hatred for zoning ordinances is just another stalking horse for extreme libertarianism, ime.

Aimless, Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

If I know iatee at all, I think what he's taking out of this are the evils of zoning laws that mandate such large lots and low population density.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:38 (2 years ago) Permalink

Those are fine if you want the land to remain agricultural but for mere residency purposes, smaller lots would be better from both an environmental and a poverty point of view.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

Also I have to guess he objects to zoning that keeps even light commercial uses out of residential areas? Or recreational use? Because people that want to live on several acres of land don't want a store or restaurant next to them, either, even though it would be walkable and maybe enriching and good for everyone.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

well, houston has no zoning laws and manages to operate w/o complete chaos (still sprawlly because of minimum parking requirements and otherwise poor planning)

I linked this upthread, an interesting comparison with french zoning:
http://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2011/09/friday-read-zoning-here-and-in-france.html

there's nothing more natural about american style euclidean zoning

iatee, Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:43 (2 years ago) Permalink

there was a marco rubio quote I saw recently about how 'america is the only country in the world where you can start a business in your garage' - which is funny because really, america is one of the worst places to start a business in your garage. most forms of 'starting a business in your garage' are illegal.

iatee, Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:53 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't know about that in that there's a lot of things you can legally do to start a business at home, but very few of them are going to be in your garage/basement at this point in the game.

mh, Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:56 (2 years ago) Permalink

Pretty sure that are a host of countries where it would be easier to start a business in a garage than it is in the US.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

literally the only country on earth that allows commerce of any kind

goole, Thursday, 19 April 2012 16:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

If they only had more garages in Africa, the locals would have a lot more businesses.

mh, Thursday, 19 April 2012 17:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's no 'at this point in the game', mh. you can't turn your garage into a restaurant or a small store even when there's nothing comparable in the neighborhood and they'd do well - even in nyc.

iatee, Thursday, 19 April 2012 17:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

mmm, holding out Houston as a desirable model for the nation's cities is not a winning proposition, imo.

Aimless, Thursday, 19 April 2012 17:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

do you think that was what I was attempting to do?

iatee, Thursday, 19 April 2012 17:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol

I think the "start a business in your garage" is a non-starter because that was when people MADE THINGS that they would then sell elsewhere. Nobody ever started a store or restaurant in their garage, silly.

The thing is that at this point most things that people can make and sell as a small or start-up business either have a limited market or are intangibles like software. You could definitely make shit that is sold on etsy or whatever in your garage.

mh, Thursday, 19 April 2012 17:10 (2 years ago) Permalink

rather the 'start a business in your garage' was a non-starter because when people 'made things' there was a concern about your neighbor building a factory next to the local school. but anything

there is still demand for commercial and retail space, there are still restaurants and stores and offices in your city. but you can't turn your garage into one, and you can in paris. even if you are just working alone as a start-up, there are constraints to what you can do:

http://www.sba.gov/content/zoning-laws-home-based-businesses

iatee, Thursday, 19 April 2012 17:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

er ignore the 'but anything'

iatee, Thursday, 19 April 2012 17:51 (2 years ago) Permalink

I do have to say though, of all camden's woes, the fact that it's more expensive to move out of it seems to be... not the top of the list.

s.clover, Thursday, 19 April 2012 18:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

That's what bikes are for.

― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Thursday, April 19, 2012 7:29 AM Bookmark

Except where I grew up it was several miles and 500 feet uphill to anywhere.

hologram ned raggett (The Reverend), Thursday, 19 April 2012 19:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

Hm yes, that is a problem. It was 3-5m for us to get anywhere, but it was v moderate terrain.

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Thursday, 19 April 2012 20:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

Overheard while walking through Union Square Park, said by man on phone: "Is he ad-DIC-ted to SPRAWL?!"

how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Friday, 20 April 2012 22:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

http://www.spatialeconomics.ac.uk/textonly/SERC/publications/download/sercdp0103.pdf

was this the thread where I was arguing against homeownership? probably.

iatee, Friday, 27 April 2012 23:03 (1 year ago) Permalink

4 u iatee

booblights and the eternal frustration (how's life), Sunday, 6 May 2012 12:54 (1 year ago) Permalink

I want them to add Manila to that

mh, Monday, 7 May 2012 14:41 (1 year ago) Permalink

When I see stuff like that I always wonder how they're defining metropolitan areas. Is Paris really ten times (or more) the density of Houston?

nickn, Monday, 7 May 2012 22:25 (1 year ago) Permalink

I moved to the suburbs many years ago after years and years of extreme environmentalism. I feel horrible about some of it...big houses use so much energy and you use way more water (you become obsessive about cleaning) and throw more garbage out. Also use way more chemical crap in and out of the house.

On the other hand I am closer to nature. You eat less take-out and cook more because you have the space. I also thing that principles are important, when you take care of your house or garden or local park it is a good discipline and there are psychological intangibles to having more nature in your life.

Also young children learn to appreciate nature at parks or in their backyards, very dense urban areas are not always the best place to teach kids respect for the ecosystem.

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Bulgarian Tourist Chamber (Mount Cleaners), Saturday, 19 May 2012 15:10 (1 year ago) Permalink

1 month passes...

BTW iatee, I have been kind of wanting to kick up another argument with you about the renting/owning thing, because one of the big downsides of majority renting is the kind of instability created by overheated rental markets like the current one (in NYC especially but nationally to a lesser extent) -- i.e. people wind up having to move every couple of years, which is extraordinarily disruptive to family and community life. I mean owning is the only way out of the milennia-old problem of being at the mercy of the landlord class.

― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 20:54 (2 minutes ago) Permalink

click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 20:57 (1 year ago) Permalink

imho there should be fewer laws

lag∞n, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:09 (1 year ago) Permalink

it is my understanding that ownership is generally positive and would solve a lot of problems, but not everyone can/should own and something should probably be done to improve rental markets and conditions in rented units regardless

akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:11 (1 year ago) Permalink

^ CONTROVERSIAL THOUGHTZ

idk what was iatee saying before? was he promoting renting as a more desirable alternative to owning?

akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:14 (1 year ago) Permalink

yes

I see you, Pineapple Teef (DJP), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:15 (1 year ago) Permalink

yeah he was basically saying he just didn't think most people should own iirc

click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:16 (1 year ago) Permalink

owning is cool if you want to own a house i guess

lag∞n, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

u get to buy whatever refrigerator you want

lag∞n, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

one that makes ice or w/e

lag∞n, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:17 (1 year ago) Permalink

more like you get to buy whatever lawnmower you want, LUCKY.

pplains, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

ooooh he is talking about homeownership subsidies... that is sorta different. mortgage interest tax deduction is def problematic

akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:19 (1 year ago) Permalink

err, maybe not JUST subsidies, but often times "home ownership" in political discussions means "subsidize middle to upper class homeownership"

akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:21 (1 year ago) Permalink

I feel like being a dad changed my tune on this a lot. Like suddenly I no longer feel like "ok w/e, I'll just move to the next neighborhood." I mean it's still not so bad with a 5-month old, but what if my daughter were in preschool or public school and we suddenly had to move to a different neighborhood because rent went up 20%? That's pretty much what happens to renter families all the time. It makes it very hard to have any kind of support network, for your child to have any consistency in their life, etc.

click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:22 (1 year ago) Permalink

it's also bad for the economy because it traps people and people who own houses are less likely to start businesses or move to a better job. and it's not a particularly good investment for most people.

iatee, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:26 (1 year ago) Permalink

imho there should be fewer laws

imho there should be fewer laws for me

Lamp, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:27 (1 year ago) Permalink

i believe in unregulated free market lamps

lag∞n, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:29 (1 year ago) Permalink

thanks for nothing oh-BOMB-ah

Lamp, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:30 (1 year ago) Permalink

it's also bad for the economy because it traps people and people who own houses are less likely to start businesses or move to a better job. and it's not a particularly good investment for most people.

this is true in broad strokes, but home ownership subsidies for low income populations in hot markets seems like a win-win

akadarbarijava (psychgawsple), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 21:32 (1 year ago) Permalink


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