People Who Live In Suburbs: Classy, Icky, or Dudes?

Oddly enough, a lot of northeast NJ is pretty walkable. I grew up in a small town 35 miles east of NYC and you could walk pretty much everywhere ... I'd walk down the street to the German deli to get kaubonbons, to school everyday, and downtown to get thrown up against a wall by an angry Puerto Rican kid. Being able to walk out the door and have adventures all day was such a big part of childhood I can't imagine what it's like to be a kid and trapped in your home because you need to drive everywhere.

That's what bikes are for.

http://blackamericanmoney.com/blackbloggers/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/d25d3a6b450pk011811.jpg

kids in the suburbs my parents live in don't ride bikes anymore, they ride razor scooters with gas engines

as a former kid, that neighborhood sounds awesome.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/the-avenue/102753/why-regions-fail-zoning-extractive-institution

That's very interesting

That article fails to make any clear distinction between and all zoning laws as a broad category, and a few, very particular types of zoning laws which tend to segregate neighborhoods by income. Removing all zoning laws would create chaos of a sort that no city could cope with or plan for. Hatred for zoning ordinances is just another stalking horse for extreme libertarianism, ime.

If I know iatee at all, I think what he's taking out of this are the evils of zoning laws that mandate such large lots and low population density.

Those are fine if you want the land to remain agricultural but for mere residency purposes, smaller lots would be better from both an environmental and a poverty point of view.

Also I have to guess he objects to zoning that keeps even light commercial uses out of residential areas? Or recreational use? Because people that want to live on several acres of land don't want a store or restaurant next to them, either, even though it would be walkable and maybe enriching and good for everyone.

well, houston has no zoning laws and manages to operate w/o complete chaos (still sprawlly because of minimum parking requirements and otherwise poor planning)

I linked this upthread, an interesting comparison with french zoning:
http://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2011/09/friday-read-zoning-here-and-in-france.html

there's nothing more natural about american style euclidean zoning

there was a marco rubio quote I saw recently about how 'america is the only country in the world where you can start a business in your garage' - which is funny because really, america is one of the worst places to start a business in your garage. most forms of 'starting a business in your garage' are illegal.

I don't know about that in that there's a lot of things you can legally do to start a business at home, but very few of them are going to be in your garage/basement at this point in the game.

Pretty sure that are a host of countries where it would be easier to start a business in a garage than it is in the US.

literally the only country on earth that allows commerce of any kind

If they only had more garages in Africa, the locals would have a lot more businesses.

there's no 'at this point in the game', mh. you can't turn your garage into a restaurant or a small store even when there's nothing comparable in the neighborhood and they'd do well - even in nyc.

mmm, holding out Houston as a desirable model for the nation's cities is not a winning proposition, imo.

do you think that was what I was attempting to do?

lol

I think the "start a business in your garage" is a non-starter because that was when people MADE THINGS that they would then sell elsewhere. Nobody ever started a store or restaurant in their garage, silly.

The thing is that at this point most things that people can make and sell as a small or start-up business either have a limited market or are intangibles like software. You could definitely make shit that is sold on etsy or whatever in your garage.

rather the 'start a business in your garage' was a non-starter because when people 'made things' there was a concern about your neighbor building a factory next to the local school. but anything

there is still demand for commercial and retail space, there are still restaurants and stores and offices in your city. but you can't turn your garage into one, and you can in paris. even if you are just working alone as a start-up, there are constraints to what you can do:

http://www.sba.gov/content/zoning-laws-home-based-businesses

er ignore the 'but anything'

I do have to say though, of all camden's woes, the fact that it's more expensive to move out of it seems to be... not the top of the list.

That's what bikes are for.

― how did I get here? why am I in the whiskey aisle? this is all so (Laurel), Thursday, April 19, 2012 7:29 AM Bookmark

Except where I grew up it was several miles and 500 feet uphill to anywhere.

Hm yes, that is a problem. It was 3-5m for us to get anywhere, but it was v moderate terrain.

Overheard while walking through Union Square Park, said by man on phone: "Is he ad-DIC-ted to SPRAWL?!"

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/04/invention-jaywalking/1837/

http://www.spatialeconomics.ac.uk/textonly/SERC/publications/download/sercdp0103.pdf

was this the thread where I was arguing against homeownership? probably.

4 u iatee

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-K9e4b6HldXE/T22tiWXHi2I/AAAAAAAACIA/d8yYJByf2n0/s1600/worlds-population-concentrated.png

I want them to add Manila to that

When I see stuff like that I always wonder how they're defining metropolitan areas. Is Paris really ten times (or more) the density of Houston?

I moved to the suburbs many years ago after years and years of extreme environmentalism. I feel horrible about some of it...big houses use so much energy and you use way more water (you become obsessive about cleaning) and throw more garbage out. Also use way more chemical crap in and out of the house.

On the other hand I am closer to nature. You eat less take-out and cook more because you have the space. I also thing that principles are important, when you take care of your house or garden or local park it is a good discipline and there are psychological intangibles to having more nature in your life.

Also young children learn to appreciate nature at parks or in their backyards, very dense urban areas are not always the best place to teach kids respect for the ecosystem.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2012/05/why-you-pay-more-walkable-neighborhoods/2122/

http://persquaremile.com/2012/05/24/income-inequality-seen-from-space/

BTW iatee, I have been kind of wanting to kick up another argument with you about the renting/owning thing, because one of the big downsides of majority renting is the kind of instability created by overheated rental markets like the current one (in NYC especially but nationally to a lesser extent) -- i.e. people wind up having to move every couple of years, which is extraordinarily disruptive to family and community life. I mean owning is the only way out of the milennia-old problem of being at the mercy of the landlord class.

― click here if you want to load them all (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 10 July 2012 20:54 (2 minutes ago) Permalink

imho there should be fewer laws

it is my understanding that ownership is generally positive and would solve a lot of problems, but not everyone can/should own and something should probably be done to improve rental markets and conditions in rented units regardless

^ CONTROVERSIAL THOUGHTZ

idk what was iatee saying before? was he promoting renting as a more desirable alternative to owning?

yes

yeah he was basically saying he just didn't think most people should own iirc

owning is cool if you want to own a house i guess

u get to buy whatever refrigerator you want

one that makes ice or w/e

more like you get to buy whatever lawnmower you want, LUCKY.

ooooh he is talking about homeownership subsidies... that is sorta different. mortgage interest tax deduction is def problematic

err, maybe not JUST subsidies, but often times "home ownership" in political discussions means "subsidize middle to upper class homeownership"

I feel like being a dad changed my tune on this a lot. Like suddenly I no longer feel like "ok w/e, I'll just move to the next neighborhood." I mean it's still not so bad with a 5-month old, but what if my daughter were in preschool or public school and we suddenly had to move to a different neighborhood because rent went up 20%? That's pretty much what happens to renter families all the time. It makes it very hard to have any kind of support network, for your child to have any consistency in their life, etc.

it's also bad for the economy because it traps people and people who own houses are less likely to start businesses or move to a better job. and it's not a particularly good investment for most people.

imho there should be fewer laws

imho there should be fewer laws for me