Nicki Minaj - Pink Friday

idk if you can ever 'fault' the pop marketplace tbh

i think it's okay to fault people for having shit taste

I guess but then you're not really treating it as pop music - you're treating it as music that you really like that happens to also do really well on billboard

whenever nicki's tried to go in that direction beatwise ("massive attack", "stupid hoe") it's resulted in amazing songs but gigantic flops. idk, pop has had shitty production for so long now and it doesn't seem to be ending. i lean towards pop failing nicki rather than vice versa b/c it's not usually incumbent on the singers/rappers to take care of pushing the production envelope - how many of the rappers who made their name over timbaland/neptunes beats would've just gone for whatever's hot if they'd come up nowadays?

jamiecox's remark about Nicki as LBJ got me wondering whether Drake is the Hubert Humphrey of pop.

tbh i have no idea what people feel like they're missing out on when nicki goes pop, it's like they're hanging onto a promise she never actually made to them

I don't know if it's even a valid point. If she scores a top ten hit, then by definition it's pop.

I don't think anyone's complaining about Nicki making pop, just bad pop. xp

it's kind of a moot distinction imo -- even if one of these songs blows up and people belatedly decide it's as great as "Super Bass" they're not gonna change their tune about the album having too much pop

yeah I think there's a distinction to be made between 'pop-style' music and what the Billboard charts tell us today is pop music

then you can argue that the prevailing trends in pop music currently are just really ill-suited to nicki's style, which is what I think j0rd is arguing

it's all pretty fluid... i think she makes a pretty clear distinction w/ her own music between "pop style music" and "rap" -- if the latter bleeds into the pop world, then my handwringing would be unwarranted, but it hasn't really yet

"beez in the trap" might change that! which would be cool, i love that song. and it has enough "look at me now" in the beat that i don't think it's out of the question. but even then it's only one song (or maybe two if you count "did it on em")

tbh i have no idea what people feel like they're missing out on when nicki goes pop, it's like they're hanging onto a promise she never actually made to them

― some dude, Monday, April 16, 2012 3:39 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

i guess it's less that i'm hanging onto a promise and more just curious as to what would happen if she had pop producers working with her that weren't all copying the same songs over and over again

there are things going on in her brain that i would like to see applied to pop music that tried and push boundaries musically, not just in terms of how successful she can be as a female MC.

maybe i'm being a bit selfish or rockist, idk -- in any even i'm mostly just talking things out and am probably biased anyway cuz the tim/neptunes era of pop is my fav music

like, maybe she's just not a "good" pop artist anyway (good is obv subjective there, i'm talking about quality not sales, and for the most part i think there's a general consensus among critics that her pop stuff is not very good), but i'd at least like to find out

i guess i'm saying i'm not sure if she's had the right opportunity to prove herself in that regard -- like i'm not gonna begrudge for a second her desire to make as much money as possible and if that means jumping into the crypt with dr luke then by all means, but i guess it's sorta lamentable from an outside perspective that her and we can't have our cake and eat it too

What is responsible for her -- if you will -- crisis? The sound of hit pop music forcing Minaj into not-so-snug jackets? I want to blame The Climate because it's easy. It's also easy but more correct that when Minaj pulls a "Starship" she sounds like Lou Reed singing atop a horn section in 1974: for a tenth of a second fascinating because platinum aspirations magnify her peculiarities?

otoh "Super Bass" Captured The Moment and doesn't sound half so compromised. I think the problem is Minaj herself; she either underestimates her strengths or overestimates her ability to render her peculiarities palatable.

*Starships

And you'd think if there was anyone in the current pop landscape totally capable of having their cake and eating it too, it would be Nicki! xxp

nicki has too much personality to be another fergie

Fergie is all personality.

fergie makes the switch from 'london bridges' to 'clumsy' to 'big girls don't cry' so effortlessly, can't picture nicki doing that at all

I think Nicki has to shoulder responsibility for not really actually trying to make tunes that succeed in the way that "Super Bass" does, and perhaps not really understanding how that success works... I think pretty much everyone who actually heard it (on either side of the divide) liked it from the off, but it was Nicki (or her label) who made it hard for it to be noticed for a long time.

What was notable about the bonus tracks for the first album is that they nearly all pitched to a mid-range* (albeit with "Super Bass" at one end of that range) that both albums for the most part neatly step around.

* one which is vaguely reminiscent of the third and fourth Missy albums in tone.

who have the best artist/producer pop combos of the last decade been? JT/timbo? lady gaga/whoever does her songs? fergie/polow?

i've been thinking like... what would nicki's interpretation of "milkshake" be? would be it so over the top and crazy that it wouldn't hit a general audience (i.e. "stupid hoe"), or it would be equally as dope?

I dunno, it's tough to say because remember, a lot of the stuff you're citing definitely PLAYED as over the top and crazy at the time. And for Nicki's pop audience, she is over the top and crazy, even on the "pop" songs. That's the niche she has I think - exactly "over the top" enough that people are like, OMG, I love her, she's so crazy!

Like, I think "Milkshake" is a pretty weird song, still to this day - and "Get Ur Freak On" and "Work It" were bonkers. Wasn't one of the first ILM threads everybody just freaking the fuck out over "Work It"?

Missy Elliot: "Work It"

I do wonder how much of the mass audience acceptance of her batshit persona obviates any need to consider her sexually.

like, maybe she's just not a "good" pop artist anyway (good is obv subjective there, i'm talking about quality not sales, and for the most part i think there's a general consensus among critics that her pop stuff is not very good)

i have seen - this is hard to believe and very smh-worthy - but i have seen with my eyes people express opinions along the lines of "the rap half of PF:RR is boring, the pop half is where it's at"

yeah i know but people like that are why the album is like it is :(

I think pop audiences are pretty used to "crazy" or even just "odd", and for the most part it doesn't faze them.

The "problem" with "Stupid Hoe" and "Massive Attack", and "Beez in the Trap" for that matter (and I love all three), is not that they're too crazy but that they're not singalong efforts in the way that, say, "Work It" or "Milkshake" were - sure they've got memorable hooks but not really in a singalong manner.

Whereas I think a very very large proportion of rap crossover hits in any era rely on a sung chorus to really connect with a massive audience, albeit using a variety of different approaches.

A lot of the appeal of "Super Bass" is similar to "Work It", the shifts between crazy verses and memorable chorus in particular.

Whereas I think a very very large proportion of rap crossover hits in any era rely on a sung chorus to really connect with a massive audience

missy herself might be the #1 way to disprove this - as astounding as "get ur freak on" is, it's not because of its chorus. "work it" has a catchier chorus but again that's not where the appeal is.

"getcha freak on getcha freak on getcha freak on" vs "you a stupid hoe you a stupid hoe you a stupid hoe stupid stupid"

I was going to note that "Get Ur Freak On" is a pretty startling exception. I did say "a very very large proportion", not "every"!

I agree re "Work It" but years of hearing it played in clubs or at house parties has confirmed for me that typically half the people rap along to the verses as well as the choruses, and other half just jump in at the choruses.

Obviously having great verses makes the songs more appealing to everyone but I think a large amount of general listeners most of the time need a memorable chorus as well.

Missy's an interesting example actually because she kind of demonstrates same dynamic in a less extreme form:

- "The Rain" doesn't really have a chorus - it got to 51 on the general US charts but number 1 on the US rap charts.

- "She's A Bitch" is kind of an equivalent to "Stupid Hoe" - it crashed at 90 on the charts (19 US rap charts).

- "Hot Boyz" went platinum and peaked at 5 on the charts (and 1 on the rap charts). It's her biggest hit still, but is really R&B. Fabulous chorus obviously.

- "Get Ur Freak On" got to 7 and was her biggest crossover rap tune at that time (if you count "Hot Boyz" as R&B) - but only got to 7 on the rap charts. It also didn't go gold.

- "Work It" got to 2 on the charts (1 on rap charts) but didn't go gold.

- Missy's biggest rap hit was "Lose Control" which got to number 3 and went gold - and has a big singalong chorus. BUT it only got to 3 on the US rap charts.

I should stress that I'm not trying to defend the taste of people who require hip hop to have sung choruses.

missy's entire career was basically an outlier in terms of both the sounds she got on the charts and her image, right? and i guess what this nicki hand-wringing is about is the desire for her also to be a successful outlier rather than pushing the envelope in some areas and then capitulating in others. or maybe she genuinely does like shitty pop, who knows.

possibly more pressure put on popular female rappers to "change the game" in a way that no male rapper, crossover or not, is asked to do?

I get the feeling that if Nicki pitched to the middle ground of the Pink Friday bonus tracks more often she'd have a much more satisfying career all round really. I dunno, in 2012 is it *that* hard to have credible hip-hop that also works as amazing pop music or is it just a failure of imagination of all concerned?

I get the feeling that if Nicki pitched to the middle ground of the Pink Friday bonus tracks more often she'd have a much more satisfying career all round really

actually, this is why i'm so satisfied with PF:RR not pitching to any middle ground - she goes to extremes in both directions, perhaps understanding that "super bass" was kind of accidental genius that can't be deliberately recreated (telling that the actual attempt to recreate it here, "va va voom", is just kinda okay whereas the accidental genius occurs on "gun shot").

I'm not suggesting rewriting Super Bass again and again - Gun Shot is the best thing here because it avoids the annoying polarisation of the rest of the record, also it's a wonderful song with actual competent songwriting unlike the rest of the pop tracks here.

Yeah I'd have been super happy if she'd tried her hand at a few more "Muny" or "Wave Ya Hand" style tracks.

missy's entire career was basically an outlier in terms of both the sounds she got on the charts and her image, right?

agree with this of course

Not that I'm unhappy with Roman Reloaded - it's def. better than the first album.

Also I'm less sure that it's a case of 'accidental genius' and more that Nicki doesn't know where her strengths lie wrt pop music. It's less a case of asking her to recreate a great pop moment and more a case of not giving a free pass to the sort of shonky toss that passes for pop music here.

hmm "wave ya hand" and "muny", good as they are, don't really do what j0rdan (and the rest of us i guess) are wanting nicki to do - they're fairly ordinary pop beats (that tbh still suffer from the over-stuffed tinniness that 99% of pop beats have in the past few years) elevated by nicki's charisma rather than nicki matching the beats in craziness.

also it's worth remembering that while most of us itt and most critics are (correctly) repelled by shit like "starships", it's actually a massive fucking hit - nicki's first solo top 3 hit in the UK - and the people sustaining nicki's megastardom are actually REALLY INTO her pop side as it currently stands.

i mean i can't really get over that. "stupid hoe", which was actually the intended lead single - total flop. "starships" - the desperate generic crap tossed out when "stupid hoe" flopped - gigantic hit. i absolutely blame the pop climate and the pop audience.

I love it when Lex gets rockist about the failings of the pop audience.

lol but my favourite singles of the year are a) at #1 and #2 in the charts, b) by carly rae jepsen and justin bieber

IT GETS BETTER

wrong thread I know, but I'm still appalled that I like that fucking Bieber song

i'm appalled that you like it too :(

havent got the time or the will to properly sentence this up, just gonna stream of consciousness it so caveat lector

think the same way that hooks and loud mastering has to *pop* on radio immediately these days so the artist's personality is way more upfront and centre foregrounded in your face than the music. weird kind of bifurcation between singer and song where people demand more crazy than ever from the singer but are happy to remain within a generic shorthand musically. listen to the big missy charisma cuts compared to nu nicki and the songs are *flatter* in this regard, missy darts in and among her music and the persona is illustrated and tied far more in with it. there's greater unity in all the elements, less distance between foreground and background stagewise

(think this is true of many things now besides just straight pop btw, cf rick ross (the rap lana del ray) or trey songz or whoever really)

if we take 'gunshot', it's a song far more in tune with the structure and grain of music as we grew up with, but it's obvious that it's a great poppy song, or "pop" song, rather than it is an ACTUAL pop song. listen to the radio for 20 minutes then put 'gun shot' on and it's comparatively drab and seems to take forever to get going, pleasant enough but the payoff is way too far down the line

i mean tbh i'm trying to talk on a level here but i'm really struggling and more than a little frightened if people can't understand why 'starships' is a hit and 'stupid hoe' isnt, or are imagining that nicki over 'slave 4 u' isnt a completely absurd idea and that they could ever somehow be compatible

oh lol ok that seemed to come out how i usually write anyway nm

lol

I finally broke down and started this up on Spotify

is it weird that so far every song sounds like the first track of an EP rather than the next song on an album? does that even make sense?