Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

it DOES matter why someone punched you, that's why we have hate crime laws

Klan = grown adults with unfiltered, actual hate in their hearts for a group of human beings they feel is inferior. Chan = Bored bronies who want to say "shocking" things to troll the world.

i dont think theres nearly this much of a difference tbh

if someone punched you because they hate your race or sexual orientation, YES I DO think that is worse than if someone punched you because they thought it would be funny to punch someone.

Whiney...I think your heart's in the right place, but that perspective is just so massively wrongheaded. The 4chan fucks might not be committing overt hate crimes per se, but they're perpetuating the mindset that allows people who do commit hate crimes to feel that they have implicit support from outside of their own community. Anyone who perpetuates that mindset, whatever their motive or level of ironic remove, is a subhuman piece of shit IMHO.

it DOES matter why someone punched you, that's why we have hate crime laws

― easter back, somebody call the binks truck (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:42 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

okay but both sides of the distinction you tried to make fall under 'hate crime laws'

Agree with Deric 100%

to my jaw, it doesn't matter at all. my jaw does not give a shit about the law.

I know it's gonna be impossible to do this w/o you getting all lit up so this is pointless but you are making an argument that comes from privilege. none of the distinctions you are drawing will have IRL effects in your life, which is why they seem tenable to you. to a person who will experience discrimination/racism (and I'd throw in a bunch of other -isms there too, but let's stay in focus), those distinctions are total, 100% bullshit afaik. But I too am reporting a privileged understanding here so idk I could have a fair bit of this wrong

I guess when I think about/rationalize that stuff it's just me trying to comfort myself into believing there's not as much Capital H Hate in the human condition.

But everyone otm that it's not my problem to worry about or distinction to make

I think the only way one can quantify offense is to begin with the cynical proposition that we are a horrible, hateful society, and that racism is so pervasive that, yes, it exists in degrees. Which may be true in both cases, depending on your perspective, which does not hinge on privilege. I see/experience degrees of anti-Semitism all the time, or at least more than I should (which is to say, it should be nil), but that does not mean I take equal offense at each instance. It's all pretty relative, though.

basically, junior high taught me that hate is mankind's default setting

I see/experience degrees of anti-Semitism all the time, or at least more than I should (which is to say, it should be nil), but that does not mean I take equal offense at each instance

yes, me too, intent actually matters a lot, comparing this shit to getting punched in the jaw is a pretty horrible analogy

Most hate seems to be rooted in misdirection engaged in by those with power which suggests that there is some Other that keeps people from getting theirs, when really it's mostly the powerful and the societal structure they maintain and people's own ignorance that keeps them down. It's just easier, I guess, to direct your anger at somebody who doesn't look/act like you than to trade punches with deeply-entrenched and unwavering institutions.

so those subhuman pieces of shit you were talking about earlier aren't really the Other stopping everyone from Just Getting Along, yr just venting because its easier?

basically, junior high taught me that hate is mankind's default setting

― God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Tuesday, April 10, 2012 9:57 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^

They're two separate arguments, ogmor. Hateful people's ignorance of why they're hateful doesn't make them any less subhumanly shitty.

http://feministing.com/2012/04/10/quick-hit-zimmerman-launches-website-with-photos-of-vandalized-cultural-center/

http://feministing.com/files/2012/04/zimmerman.jpg

the spray paint on the building? yup, it's the black cultural center at ohio state

http://www.thelantern.com/mobile/campus/long-live-zimmerman-on-hale-hall-ohio-state-s-black-cultural-center-1.2840151

there is, on some level, something to enjoy about the fact that a white supremacist in 2012 has to side w/ a partially hispanic dude w/ the last name 'zimmerman'

deric i'm not sure yr righteousness will prove a useful weapon in this battle

ha wow not arresting this guy immediately is beginning to look like it's not gonna work out in his favor

Really not sure what you're talking about, ogmor. Those posts were in response to slight detours from the core discussion itt, not to anything specifically relating to the Trayvon Martin case. Assuming that's what you're getting at.

do you not think that deeming ppl who fall foul of yr moral code 'subhuman' is mb dubious & unhelpful ?

there is, on some level, something to enjoy about the fact that a white supremacist in 2012 has to side w/ a partially hispanic dude w/ the last name 'zimmerman'

unless you happen to be black I guess

do you not think that deeming ppl who fall foul of yr moral code 'subhuman' is mb dubious & unhelpful ?

No, I don't think it's especially dubious to call people 'subhuman' when they engage in hateful actions towards other people because they are different than them. What exactly is the 'helpful' way to approach people like that? For the record, I think most people are capable of redemption, but they want to want to redeem themselves. To the extent that people choose to behave like pieces of shit, though, I reserve the right to call them out for behaving like pieces of shit. I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make.

Wanna point out, again (since we're veering away from the point of this thread), that I'm not talking specifically about the Trayvon Martin case.

well lumping bronyism with the KKK does feel a bit insulting all around

I don't think it's especially dubious to call people 'subhuman' when they engage in hateful actions towards other people

more accurate to call them 'human' imho, but ok

that graffiti, christ. i have a gut feeling that before this finishes playing out, something is going to burn.

Call them reptilian. That's the part of the brain that's active.

Dear some people itt: bending over backwards to defend the essential humanity of virulent racists is maybe a little nagl.

essentially, these people are, I don't know, dogs or something

it's good to know how much you hate racists, dwc, i'm sure we're all edified by your moral indignation. i'm sorry that pointing out the fact that racists are humans upsets you but it's kind of a factual statement, if that makes you feel bad about being a human well *shrugs*

Consider, if you will, that I'm using 'subhuman' as a figure of speech. In addition, it's possible that I may not actually be asserting that they're literal pieces of shit.

(Also, I like dogs, so that doesn't work.)

i think elmo's point upthread is that "to be human" means "to have some prejudices"

how bout subdogs

xp

i think elmo's point is more that we don't get to pretend that we don't know being horrible is eminently human.

what's subdog?

could really go for a subdog right now

Cats

horseshoe has it

a subdog piled with some red hots

5nowdog5

when people call things like this "subhuman", they are not always trying to mark it out as a behavioral aberration that no normal person would do; sometimes they are trying to say that people should always strive and aspire to be better than that

but you know, it's really much more important that we all spend time bickering amongst each other about the proper way to dislike racism and to express said disapproval

The ironic thing is that virulent racists in this day and age are really in essence the ultimate, uncontested "other."

uh

Huh?

i think elmo's point is more that we don't get to pretend that we don't know being horrible is eminently human.

Wait...who's pretending this? Let me just go ahead and clarify my position, for those who are hard of reading:

I acknowledge homo sapiens as a species whose individual members are capable of doing horrible things and perpetuating horrible beliefs. I also acknowledge the existence of free will, which means that most homo sapiens have the capacity to choose whether or not to be horrible. I, myself, occasionally exercise an apparently super-rare and noteworthy aspect of free will wherein I both harshly judge other homo sapiens for behaving horribly and utilize idiomatic expressions in doing so. I also sometimes punctuate my initial instance of doing so with an "IMHO", which stands for "in my humble opinion", which means that it's not a factual statement which people who can't process metaphor should take as a cosmic absolute asserting the existence of literal subhumans.

Also, for the sake of clarification, I'm not saying that your grandmother's troublesome and old-fashioned views of other races or "the gays" makes her a horrible person, unless your grandmother is also burning crosses in people's yards or spray painting antisemitic epithets on synagogues or spouting the n-word in a totes ironic fashion on 4chan boards.

Max, I can't think of any quicker way to ostracize yourself from the mainstream than to be a virulent racist. Nobody likes a racist except other racists.

so ironic

Isn't it? Doncha think?

What's wrong with calling it ironic? Am I missing some nuance?

deric, that wasn't really directed at you; i hadn't even read the entire disagreement. i basically just disagreed with frogbs's take on what elmo had said.

it's weird in a thread about trayvon martin to suggest that racism is a completely marginalized force in this day and age