Transport in London is shit

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anyone who thinks London's transport system is bad has obviously never witnessed the sheer horror of transport outside of the M25.

outside london you can, you know, walk or cycle places.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

how much is a monthly travelcard anyway?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

outside london you can, you know, walk or cycle places.

you can do those things inside london too, you know.

― i am not a nugget (stevie), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:48 (7 years ago) Permalink

death wish

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 09:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

the cost for providing staff is estimated to be between £2m to £4m a year

Eh? How many people do you reckon they employ?

― James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

trains between countries in europe are always more expensive than flying! eg london > barcelona - train - 180 euros, plane 110 euros.

i cant see train travel getting much cheaper as a result of competition from air travel. maybe we should read my friends dissertation about rail/air competition for business travel between leeds and london. isnt the problem partly that franchising to an extent creates kinda flabby uncompetitive practice, where profits can be made in relative safety from predatory activity, if there isnt strong enough contractual arrnagements or tight enough regulation on the performance of the franchisee?

eg "we award you this contract but will continue to allow you to increase fares/reduce penalties for poor performance, and you can do this for the next 10 years" as opposed to "you have a guaranteed revenue stream for the next 10 years but oyu must ensure to do X Y Z and not do P Q and S"?

i dont really know anything about this anyways.

i guess in a sense i dont really compare london to other cities in europe so that gives me a warped sense of how good transport is in comparison to other UK CITIES (dear sirz, outside of london there are population sizes larger than Basildon, Letchworth, and Chorlton-cum-Hardy). but then again what other european cities are comparable? how does paris do? it might be hyperbole but what euro cities are comparable in terms of geograpohic spread, density of developemnt, population etc etc?

moscow was pretty awesome but they run everything on vodka there, or something. actually it was sort of shit outside the metro, but it depends what your criteria for "good public transport" are

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

paris is a lot smaller than london, it's true. for me it's all about money. £2.50 for a tube journey is fucked.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

The prices are ridiculous, thanks a lot Ken Fucking Livingstone

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:15 (7 years ago) Permalink

I thought the subway in New York was more confusing (all that fast train / slow train business, and the lines don't have nice names like Victoria and Piccadilly) but much, much cheaper - about a third of the cost.

When it comes to the 'after midnight' bit, in London that usually means walking through the rain then freezing at a bus stop for half an hour then sitting on a very slow nightbus full of nutters, or paying twenty-five quid to a random ex-convict with a 'taxi' who'll drive you home (eventually, after getting lost) while spouting reactionary nonsense at you the whole way. In New York there seem to be five yellow taxis waiting for you immediately at any time, they don't cost much, and with the grid system they don't get lost.

― Tehrannosaurus HoBB (the pirate king), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

The bus service is great, but they're (now) far too expensive too

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

It's not perfect, but Wiggy is right, compared to LA it's the best transport system ever. I thought it was about the same as NYC although it is more expensive. The buses have got a lot better in recent years, and I think CCTV has made night buses a bit safer, at least I never see any trouble on them these days.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

lol lol lol!!!!!

again, its hard not to laugh when you are subject to the whims of a properly deregulated market outside of london. First Groups bus fares went up 4 times in a year in s yorks, now its 1.50 a single on first buses. still 1.20/30 in london?

as for tube fares, what is expensive about a 2.50 tube fare? in comparison to previous prices? or are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:30 (7 years ago) Permalink

-- ambrose (ambrosewhit...), February 14th, 2006.

what's expensive is, it's expensive! let someone else do the math. but yes 'distance travelled' being about 2-3 miles, it does seem out of proportion.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

I've never seen any trouble on a bus in London ever. If you think night buses in London are dodgy, you should have tried spending most of your adolescent Friday and Saturday nights getting the night bus from Glasgow to Paisley at George Square.

still 1.20/30 in london?

It's now £1.50. Considering that, what 4 years ago(?), local journeys were 70p, I'd say that is somewhat above the rate of inflation.

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

are you assessing the cost of labour, infrastructure, distance travelled etc etc and concluding that it is overpriced?

another factor to consider might be the *vast fucking profits* made by the operator too?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:34 (7 years ago) Permalink

But Londoners moaning about having the best transport system in Britain is a bit boring, I agree

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:35 (7 years ago) Permalink

but maybe justified on a thread of this name?

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:36 (7 years ago) Permalink

It would tend to encourage that response

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

How does one get to this 'outside London'? Are you talking about the end of the Central Line or that Zone B nonsense at the end of the Metropolitan Line?

Bendy Bus 38 on diversion Saturday. Confused the hell out of me. KEN OUT! etc.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

It's now £1.50. Considering that, what 4 years ago(?), local journeys were 70p, I'd say that is somewhat above the rate of inflation.

But 80p on Oyster or Carnet.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

... and what if you don't use public transport every day? If you're unemployed or an OAP (do they get concessions)?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

my oyster seems to subtract £1 on the bus. must ask tfl.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:43 (7 years ago) Permalink

... or a part time worker?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:43 (7 years ago) Permalink

I just think it's a fucking crime the amount of money commuters are expected to pay. If I worked in London, it would cost me around about £16-£25 to travel a few miles from Hitchin into the capital every single day. This might just about be justified if the service was fast and efficient. However I abject to the fact that these people are swiping up to a third of commuters' wages for the privilege of standing* with some guy's armpit in their face and being *ahem* "whisked" along at a comparatively laconic rate over a very short distance. And that's if your train actually turns up**, or if the elusively crap ticket machine decides to give you a ticket as opposed to swallowing your cash card.
Why exactly does it cost so much just to traverse a small area of this tiny island? Why is it so unreliable? Why are there so few trains? Why, if I'm out in London, am I stranded if I decide to stay out after midnight? Why are the staff so rude all the time? Why don't they have a ticket barrier that stops people dodging fares? Why don't the ticket machines ever work? Why is there never more than one person selling tickets at a time? Why are the trains so slow?
Tear it down and start again, I reckon. Antiquated bollocks run by a bunch of retarded money-grubbing jerks.

*or sitting down on the floor where they get kicked
** for many people, they won't know their train isn't coming until several minutes after the fact since all the video terminals are fucked

― Vintage Latin (dog latin), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

£1 between 7:30am and 9:30am

OAPs get freedom passes and their are concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal

Not having an oyster of some sort is foolish

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

Concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal? Are you sure?

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:46 (7 years ago) Permalink

I rode the new DLR extension to George V t'other day. I love the DLR. I like the look of the new 'Millennium' park by the Thames Barrier.

― Mikey G (Mikey G), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 10:46 (7 years ago) Permalink

that's fkn typical that the fares are 20p higher *when you're most likely to us it*. it makes the 80p claim a load of old toss.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

>> Concessionary fares for Jobseekers/New Deal? Are you sure?

I never heard of this when I was signing on, but that was a couple of years ago.

― Colonel Poo (Colonel Poo), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

I think you gradually become immune. It's every bit as shit as before, but I'm just another cockneyfied zombie now.

― PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

http://tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tickets/2006/photocards/index.shtml#1617

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:02 (7 years ago) Permalink

I don't have a monthly Travelcard - I did for a few years but I figured with the monotony of my public transport usage (and tending towards going out in the car at weekends) I wasn't getting my money's worth, so I switched to Oyster Pre-Pay. Inbetween I had a spell of Bus Pass + Pre-Pay top-up, which worked nicely for the occasional Tube journey.

Now I just get the X68 both ways (long walk at the Zone 1 end, but I probably need it) and tend to spend around £30-35/month. (Z1-3 Travelcard is £100/mo, Z1-2 is £85/mo [would allow me to use buses outside Z2 but not rail], All Zone Bus Pass is £52/mo).

The capping of Oyster Pre-Pay so that you never pay more than an equivalent daily Travelcard or Bus Pass if you find yrself bus- and Tube-hopping is a nice feature. Now, if they'd just install Oystercard readers at SE London surburban rail stations...

― Michael Jones (MichaelJ), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

That is definately needed.

― Ed (dali), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

First Bus are absolute bastards. They put up their prices towards the end of last year due to "fuel costs". But according to Private Eye, this is nonsense, as they struck a two year fixed price deal with their suppliers (or something like that). Glasgow buses are dirty, you have to have the exact change, most of the bus stops don't have timetables (apparently this is partly so they can meet their reliability targets - less bus stops with time tables means its harder to prove a bus is late). I suppose I'm quite lucky as I live just off Dumbarton Rd, so there's no shortage of buses, and there's always the low level train, which is fantastic, as long as you live on the route that is.

The full horror of British Rail prices will soon hit me as my Young Persons Rail Card runs out in March. A peak time return from Glasgow to Edinburgh costs about £18. That's a 40 minute journey. Peak time Glasgow to Stirling, however, costs £8.30. And that's a 35 minute journey. WTF?

That said, having travelled on the geriatric, freezing and slow trains south of London in order to get to ATP, we've at least got half decent rolling stock in Scotland. At least, in those parts of the country unaffected by the Beeching Cuts.

London transport is pretty decent, but then I don't live there so don't have to face all the problems commuters do. The big problem with transport systems in British cities is the lack of integration. The best public transport I've come across is in Berlin. As soon as you work out the difference between the s-bahn and the u-bahn etc you're sorted.

― stew!, Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:11 (7 years ago) Permalink

Why, if I'm out in London, am I stranded if I decide to stay out after midnight?

dude, you're not.

when you're looking to move somewhere - in london or elsewhere - you check out the transport links (tube, buses, nightbuses, overground, tram, dlr, whatever) and if the provision is incompatible with your lifestyle, don't move to that part of london/wherever. i'm sure there are far-flung places on london's edges that are not served by nightbuses, but i've never found any and wtf would you be living there for? it's not meant for you, obviously.

― emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

jesus. ^^

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:13 (7 years ago) Permalink

what?

― emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:23 (7 years ago) Permalink

emsk, I think the problem Dog Latin has is the same one as me—the late train back out of London to Hitchin and Cambridge was scrapped some time ago, meaning that the last train back from King's X is something like 12:15am.

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

I never used to be able to get back to Ruislip later than 12.15 and that's in Zone 5/6. This was not helped by LT changing the N98's route back in the late 90s so that it only went as far as Northolt. Had to get a cab from there a few times. I thought this was all very rubbish considering the number of tube stations Ruislip has. But then I got a job in town and could move somewhere a bit closer to the action so it worked out I guess.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:29 (7 years ago) Permalink

Gotta say that the Oxford Tube stopping at Hillingdon station at all hours of the night was a real godsend though. Cost £3 to get from the centre of London to Hillingdon but then a £5/6 cab to travel a fraction of the distance from there as that was the only way home.

― Sororah T Massacre (blueski), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:31 (7 years ago) Permalink

lots of the ppl i work with live bleedin' miles out in essex or kent (but still 'london').

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:31 (7 years ago) Permalink

it used to cost about a fiver return *from oxford* to london, and i'd often walk from the marble arch stop to wherever i was going; it still costs me a fiver return from north london...

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

oh! ok! sorry. i thought he meant since he'd moved to london. or did he not move to london, did i make that part up? anyway yeah, in that case i'm 100% in agreement, links between cities that are not that far away from each other (post-11pm even, never mind midnight) are appalling. i assume it's bc they don't want pissed-up binge-drinkers from pissed-up binge-drink britain puking all over their trains?

but if you live in london, you can totally stay out as late as you want and get home on a bus/combination of buses. except possibly in aforementioned far-flung "zone b" places or whatever.

― emsk ( emsk), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:33 (7 years ago) Permalink

BAN THIS SICK FILTH

― tissp! (the impossible shortest specia), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:35 (7 years ago) Permalink

BAN THIS FILTHY SICK

― Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

Enrique is there a reason why you have decided not to get an Oyster? From what you're saying it seems fairly clear to me that it would save you money, and cost does seem to be quite a concern for you.

― Tim (Tim), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:41 (7 years ago) Permalink

wha? no i do have an oyster.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

yes cost 'is quite a concern for me' wtf.

― The Man Without Shadow (Enrique), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:42 (7 years ago) Permalink

a tube fare for 2-3 miles might be expensive, but not if you go 10 miles for 3.00 pounds (which you could do). similarly, my bus journey saves me a 45 minute walk. i reckon that is worth 1.50, which is after all, cheaper than a pint, but if it was the equivalent of a 15 minute walk it would be expensive.

im questioning how much you value transport, and where you get your concept of cheap or expensive from. how much should transport cost us as a proportion of our overall outgoings?
should we be able to commute from hitchin to london every day? given the restraints on capacity on the train network in london, how possible is it to accomodate the numbers of commuters coming in every day?

why do planners in hertfordshire allow developers to build new blocks of luxury/executive apartments right next to rail stations with decent commuter train services, when there is no improvement to the service to accomodate the increased number of comuters that these developments are sure to bring?

im questioning the concepts that a) we should be able to travel where and when we want/need to, from where and to where, and b) that this travel should be "cheap" "affordable" or at the least "not expensive" c) the travel should be reliable, or high quality, or predictable, ro something. why are any of these givens that we "should" have access to them? becasue it costs 1.50 to get the bus? does that cover the full cost of providing that service? i appreciate that anger is mainly focussed on he fact that fares are set to cover increasing profits for the private involvement in providing transport services rather than covering the costs, but i find it strange that bus dergeulation for example took place a full 20 years ago, and yet an organisation like "We Want Our Buses Back" has only just been set up.
the fact that london is the most safeguarded against the worst effects of privatisation in public transport and that other areas are desperately trying to get round the impositions in place to achieving a similar set up means that its hard not to envy, rather than denigrate public transport in London from a provinicial persepctive

― ambrose (ambrose), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:44 (7 years ago) Permalink

(many many xposts)

Is this actually true? I'd always thought received wisdom said the exact opposite.

Yeah, I found New York transpot to be awful. Admittedly it is a lot cheaper, which makes it sort of forgivable, but then when what ought to be a 40 minute journey regularly ended up taking 90 minutes, I tended to feel I'd have been happier to pay more and just get there.

Ok, I'm going to rant here. You know the handy electronic readouts you get on the tube telling you how long you have to wait for the next train? None of that on the NY subway, you just have to stand and wait and hope. On the A/C line (where I was staying) it seemed 4 out of 5 trains were express, and didn't stop at my stop, so even though a train might pass every five minutes, i'd only be able to get on one every 25 minutes. Each weekend at least one line will be closed completely, for engineering works or whatever, and there's no staff around to give out announcements to let you know about that. There's just A4 sheets stuck to some pillars, which are easily missed, so it's very easy to stand and wait 20 minutes for a train that isn't ever coming. Stations stay open all night, yeah, but quite often a station will close all but one entrance/exit, which can mean a ten minute walk in the wrong direction to even get inside there. and once you do get in, you find that trains after 11pm only run on certain routes, and become incredibly infrequent.

Really, Londoners don't know they're born.

― JimD (JimD), Tuesday, 14 February 2006 11:45 (7 years ago) Permalink

Skipping 939 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

This makes it a single train commute for me, which is great, but pisser about losing the direct Victoria trains (especially at weekends, when there seem to be none).

― stet, Thursday, 29 November 2012 12:20 (5 months ago) Permalink

I had no idea that the inner loop (South London line) from Victoria to London Bridge was closing. Bit of a pain for regular users of Wandsworth Rd and Clapham High St. Also, the once-a-day parliamentary train that runs up to Kensington Olympia is finally being withdrawn from those stations too.

I've now downloaded a spreadsheet of station usage. Someone stop me.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 29 November 2012 12:40 (5 months ago) Permalink

Peckham Rye gets more than Aberdeen!

― stet, Thursday, 29 November 2012 12:44 (5 months ago) Permalink

I'm assuming the closure of that inner loop means fewer trains from London Bridge down to Crystal Palace (and beyond) as well? That's going to fuck up my commute if so.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 November 2012 12:49 (5 months ago) Permalink

Not sure the inner loop closure will affect LB-CP, and there's no increased capacity on the stretch south of New Cross (as there was when the original extension came into service), so it should be OK. When Overground services first started between Palace/West Croydon and Dalston, there was a reduction of trains in/out of London Bridge along the Forest Hill/Sydenham line, leading to the dreaded 25min hole in southbound rush hour services from LB which I still occasionally find myself falling into.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 29 November 2012 13:02 (5 months ago) Permalink

Yeah I got my loops mixed up, this is the one that goes through South Bermondsey and Peckham Rye and places, right?

― Matt DC, Thursday, 29 November 2012 13:26 (5 months ago) Permalink

The wikipedia journey starting at Parliamentary trains is fab. Eg: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gainsborough_Central_railway_station - managed to have fewer passengers than a station which was closed and had no tracks.

― stet, Thursday, 29 November 2012 14:34 (5 months ago) Permalink

We followed the same route, Stet!

MDC: yep.

― Michael Jones, Thursday, 29 November 2012 14:38 (5 months ago) Permalink

Anyone else get caught out by the arriva bus strike this morning?

― sktsh, Thursday, 29 November 2012 15:42 (5 months ago) Permalink

the extension of the Northern line to Battersea

I had no idea this was even being considered

― all the people on the right, boogaloo (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 29 November 2012 16:29 (5 months ago) Permalink

I thought I had escaped bus strike troubles, but then I waited 25 minutes for my bus only for it to drive past me. RIP evening plans.

― Shane Richie Junior (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 29 November 2012 17:37 (5 months ago) Permalink

Ah, this explains why somebody who was supposed to meet me this morning waited 50 minutes for a bus which never came. I thought he was exaggerating.

― all the people on the right, boogaloo (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 29 November 2012 17:52 (5 months ago) Permalink

2 months pass...

again with my annual commute i find myself asking how this shit is acceptable or even possible

clapham junction to high st kensington - FOUR stops - has just taken me 70 MINUTES

i stayed in battersea to make the commute easier and it would have taken less time to do it from hackney FFS

― lex pretend, Thursday, 7 February 2013 10:48 (3 months ago) Permalink

i've heard many reports that the new southern overground line is a bit of a shambles, journeys involving it invariably taking 30 mins longer than they should and such.

― hot young stalin (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 7 February 2013 10:51 (3 months ago) Permalink

also, inexplicably doesn't allow you to indicate that you're avoiding zone 1 by using it.

― hot young stalin (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 7 February 2013 10:52 (3 months ago) Permalink

oh you motherfucker

victoria station is where the party is right now

― imago, Thursday, 7 February 2013 11:27 (3 months ago) Permalink

Overground has been punctual whenever I've used it, which has only been in extremis because the thousands of stops make it too damn slow and infrequent even if it's on time.

― stet, Thursday, 7 February 2013 12:14 (3 months ago) Permalink

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