GIRLS talk (the Lena Dunham thread)

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at least i have seen it on the big screen b4 tho

surm, Thursday, 5 April 2012 16:24 (five years ago) Permalink

twice actually!

surm, Thursday, 5 April 2012 16:25 (five years ago) Permalink

haven't seen any of her stuff, she's doing several days of film 'presenting' at BAM, tonight w/ Whit Stillman.

Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 April 2012 16:26 (five years ago) Permalink

i sympathized with most of the characters in tiny furniture?

haha me too

i saw one of the episodes on the weekend it was... idk, im p excited to watch them properly but it was a bit of a mess. theres a lot of ambivalence in general i guess

Lamp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 16:27 (five years ago) Permalink

Tiny Furniture was horrific but she might do okay in a TV format. As long as she's not directing.

Simon H., Thursday, 5 April 2012 16:30 (five years ago) Permalink

oops hey i missed surm's posts, sorry.

Literal Facepalms (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 5 April 2012 16:34 (five years ago) Permalink

some dude OTM about Tiny Furniture's filmmaking, but I also can't find it in myself to give a shit about the problems of an educated rich kid in this hard hard world of moving back into the 'rents multimillion dollar loft.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:27 (five years ago) Permalink

still going to give Girls a shot, maybe there will be characters who aren't hateable

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:28 (five years ago) Permalink

I think she's more self-aware than people who offer that criticism realize

Number None, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:30 (five years ago) Permalink

I think she is sorta cute and seems fun and smart

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:31 (five years ago) Permalink

"WKIW", as I believe you say

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:32 (five years ago) Permalink

Like the scene where she has the big argument with her mother and she's all "I'm 22 and i just graduated and i got my first job". I have to believe that was somewhat tongue in cheek

Number None, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:34 (five years ago) Permalink

I don't think it was, or that the entire movie was one big self-aware joke at the expense of overprivileged twentysomethings... but I'm not sure that it would improve things had that been her intention.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:36 (five years ago) Permalink

i like how the friend from ohio felt like a protagonist that wandered in from some other (slightly more conventional) movie

40oz of tears (Jordan), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:38 (five years ago) Permalink

That's another thing. She tells her friend a day before she moves to New York that she's not going to move in with her, avoids all her calls, blows her off at the art thing cos that dude turns up etc. It has to be a joke, right?

Number None, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:40 (five years ago) Permalink

idk it's all part & parcel of being an actual horrible, spoiled 20-something

johnny crunch, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:41 (five years ago) Permalink

the character, not lena i mean

johnny crunch, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:42 (five years ago) Permalink

I think there was a degree of self-awareness on display in Tiny Furniture, but probably not the degree of self-awareness that she might've had if she'd waited a couple more years to make it.

1 of paper = 4 of coin (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:42 (five years ago) Permalink

Which is a lot of why I'm open to Girls being more "my thing".

1 of paper = 4 of coin (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:42 (five years ago) Permalink

its not a "joke" but it is "self-aware"

max, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:44 (five years ago) Permalink

Yeah but she didn't. She made it when she was like 23/24 and it's pretty much ABOUT being that age.

xxp

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:44 (five years ago) Permalink

I mean, she was self-aware enough to not portray her character as a completely sympathetic protagonist (see: the treatment of her friend from Ohio) but I don't know that she was as aware of her character's/her own level of privilege as I would've liked.

1 of paper = 4 of coin (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:45 (five years ago) Permalink

It's certainly no less self-aware than you might hope/expect given the age and status of the filmmaker.

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:45 (five years ago) Permalink

Why does she have to apologize to you for being rich

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:45 (five years ago) Permalink

I never really understand the "ugh, why would i want to watch something about rich people" criticism. I like to watch things about all kinds of people. I'm not rich btw

Number None, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:47 (five years ago) Permalink

She made it when she was like 23/24 and it's pretty much ABOUT being that age.

That being the case, I almost wish it had been less self-aware and more just a document of 23/24-ness. She probably had more awareness of how ridiculous people are at that age than most people do when they actually are that age, but it still didn't seem like a terribly high level of awareness.

1 of paper = 4 of coin (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:47 (five years ago) Permalink

am i automatically supposed to give a shit about poor people but not about rich people

max, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:48 (five years ago) Permalink

I've also heard the opposite argument, the why-make-art-out-of-other-people's poverty argument that seems to suggest ALL films should be about people who are at LEAST of the same social status as the filmmaker/potential audience, which is deeply weird.

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:50 (five years ago) Permalink

It's interesting that a desire to see a higher level of awareness of the characters' privilege translates to some as a demand for an apology or a lack of desire to see a movie about rich people. Kinda not the same thing at all.

1 of paper = 4 of coin (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:51 (five years ago) Permalink

i think its really 'self-aware' but not entirely self-critical, like these are the worst impulses and decisions and stuff but its not about how terrible its just like, this is how it is

Lamp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:52 (five years ago) Permalink

i tend to think that the best art is usually made about people from the same social/economic background as the filmmaker, this is not a real Rule at all but i guess im saying id rather lena dunham make this movie and whit stillman make those movies and john updike write about rabbit than have them all try to do like "menace II society" or something

max, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:53 (five years ago) Permalink

OTM. Although the attempt might be horrifyingly absorbing.

1 of paper = 4 of coin (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:54 (five years ago) Permalink

anyways her character is not rich, her parents are better off than average. she leaps head on into being working poor. Having the puffy white cloud of conditional support beneath you is nice, but her story seems to be about what happens when you've always had gentle hands carrying you everywhere and then the palanquin stops and you gotta figure out how to be a grown up.
the "I feel like I'm entering a really exiting period in my life right now" / "What are you talking about? Everything you own is in garbage bags on my kitchen floor" joke is very much dead on with my experience during that time and feels pretty real. sure it's privileged, but she's hyperaware of it and seems to be primed to make good stories within that space

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:55 (five years ago) Permalink

a desire to see a higher level of awareness of the characters' privilege

i mean i think there are lots of parts of 'tiny furniture'/what ive seen of 'girls' thats really aware of how privileged some of the characters are but they maybe still dont know what that means, how they should deal with their comparative privilege not knowing the right tone to strike or pose to take or w/e like knowing w/o really understanding, being 22

Lamp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:56 (five years ago) Permalink

^

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:57 (five years ago) Permalink

as a guy who DID move back home with his parents after college i suspect i'll find things to sympathize with here

y'tulip, y'pea-brained earwig (donna rouge), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:58 (five years ago) Permalink

I don't think that it's about rich vs. poor, it's about the stakes being so small that Tiny Furniture/Lost In Translation/etc. wind up being about "this is how it is" for the overprivileged. Which is just not a very interesting story to tell.

I loved 'Wendy & Lucy,' which is also kind of "this is how it is" (you could criticize Michelle Williams's character's choices and how it all could have been easily avoided, etc.) but there's real shit going on there.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:58 (five years ago) Permalink

anyways her character is not rich, her parents are better off than average.

Gotta call bullshit if you're talking about Tiny Furniture.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 5 April 2012 17:58 (five years ago) Permalink

(will totally cop to being a Stalinist about the wealthy, fwiw)

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:00 (five years ago) Permalink

I will allow for the possibility that I didn't particularly care for the movie in large part because it's so grueling to watch people in their early 20s wrestle with the inherent douchebaggery of being in one's early 20s.

1 of paper = 4 of coin (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:00 (five years ago) Permalink

Have said elsewhere that my response to Metropolitan after 30 minutes was "nuke them all from orbit," Tiny Furniture was not this bad.

Kiarostami bag (milo z), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:01 (five years ago) Permalink

it's about the stakes being so small

'what is a life worth?'

Lamp, Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:01 (five years ago) Permalink

i tend to think that the best art is usually made about people from the same social/economic background as the filmmaker, this is not a real Rule at all but i guess im saying id rather lena dunham make this movie and whit stillman make those movies and john updike write about rabbit than have them all try to do like "menace II society" or something

I get your point max but I guess it really depends on how much the filmmaker has a public presence that forms part of the conversation around the film. Obviously with LD that is a factor, but not every artist fits neatly into some social or economic type and it always seems like a much bigger deal than it should be. If you only make work about who you are and where you are from, you can easily turn that into an examination of identity or you can just come across as totally self-absorbed. I think it is to Lena Dunham's credit that folks ITT seem split on that question.

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:02 (five years ago) Permalink

"anyways her character is not rich, her parents are better off than average."
basing this on the promo language where she asks her parents for 1100 a month for the next two years to get on her feet and they straight up laugh at her; the rich would shrug and put up with that shit methinks
anyways, i'm talking about a show I haven't seen yet; I should shut up until I see the pilot.

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:02 (five years ago) Permalink

I loved 'Wendy & Lucy,' which is also kind of "this is how it is" (you could criticize Michelle Williams's character's choices and how it all could have been easily avoided, etc.) but there's real shit going on there.

Didn't love W&L, but otherwise this is OTM.

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:02 (five years ago) Permalink

in any case, she is hella primed to be A BIG THING and a VOICE OF THE MILLENNIAL GENERATION and i am curious to see how she/this holds up to broad scrutiny
anything's better than miranda fucking july

wrapped sausage stylus (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:03 (five years ago) Permalink

OTM

Number None, Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:03 (five years ago) Permalink

TRUTH. BOMB.

1 of paper = 4 of coin (Deric W. Haircare), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:03 (five years ago) Permalink

Don't know enough about Kelly Reichardt to know if she has experience of being young and broke in nu-recession America, but I'm going to assume not.

og (admrl), Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:04 (five years ago) Permalink

I get your point max but I guess it really depends on how much the filmmaker has a public presence that forms part of the conversation around the film. Obviously with LD that is a factor, but not every artist fits neatly into some social or economic type and it always seems like a much bigger deal than it should be. If you only make work about who you are and where you are from, you can easily turn that into an examination of identity or you can just come across as totally self-absorbed. I think it is to Lena Dunham's credit that folks ITT seem split on that question.

― og (admrl), Thursday, April 5, 2012 2:02 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh yeah i agree with this

max, Thursday, 5 April 2012 18:05 (five years ago) Permalink

was kind of an odd ending to a show. episodes that came before were a lot stronger i felt, though that seems to be a trend in tv now, penultimate episodes of seasons/series being better than finales.

they had hannah being a total nightmare and awful and freaking out about being a mother, then, seemingly inevitably she had that little epiphany out of nowhere, and went home, and was ready to deal with motherhood and could breastfeed all of a sudden.

-_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 17:12 (one month ago) Permalink

i liked the ending a lot. it invalidated everything we saw thus far. your 20s are fucking drama and full of idiots and then you grow up and move on and they are gone except the one friend you hate and all that drama was for nothing. p good stuff.

kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 17:14 (one month ago) Permalink

haha yes that was my takeaway too

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 17:26 (one month ago) Permalink

xp lol otm

johnny crunch, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 18:17 (one month ago) Permalink

unless you're a ridiculous gaybot like Elijah, who will probably go on like that til he's 60 or we all get nuked.

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 18:24 (one month ago) Permalink

Michael Sicinski‏
@msicism
So take note: you're a narcissistic child until you have a baby. A trajectory even Dunham's right-wing haters could love.

Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 19:48 (one month ago) Permalink

she's STILL a narcissistic child at the end!

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 19:54 (one month ago) Permalink

29 is much too young to stop being a narcissistic asshole anyway

i think i only fully became not an asshole around 34 - that might even be pushing it

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 20:05 (one month ago) Permalink

she's STILL a narcissistic child at the end!

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, April 18, 2017 12:54 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

she has her epiphany at the end and then goes home to stoically and competently take care of her baby.

-_- (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 20:11 (one month ago) Permalink

yah there wasn't much evolution or growing.. they were all still the same shitheads. hannah's mom basically said "it doesn't get better." the only conceit was you lose your friends eventually. she didn't have an epiphany in the except "i finally bonded with my baby and that's more important than all my shithead friends that didn't actually matter." (just all my take away idk)

kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 20:14 (one month ago) Permalink

i figured esp given her background she was suffering to some degree of postpartum depression, which is no joke

blonde redheads have more fun (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 20:22 (one month ago) Permalink

re: GIRLS, it's not quite so extreme (nobody's a murderer, for ex.) but it was also not handled as deftly imo. The show, especially in latter seasons, seemed to go out of its way to display characters' loathsomeness w out making them v relatable (imo), so when it came time for the viewer to give a shit about whatever emotional conflict was being foregrounded, it just didn't work.

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, April 18, 2017 12:08 PM (three hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sociopath doesn't mean "self centered" or "asshole" or "jerk a lot of the time"

blonde redheads have more fun (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 20:24 (one month ago) Permalink

I never said any of the GIRLS characters were sociopaths. If you want to argue about the Sopranos characters, that's a different story.

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 20:33 (one month ago) Permalink

i figured esp given her background she was suffering to some degree of postpartum depression, which is no joke

it wasn't really played as post-partum depression though, the problem was characterized as her being...exactly the same as before.

change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 20:56 (one month ago) Permalink

They mentioned post partum depression as being a factor in the "inside this episode" bit after the show

dan selzer, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 20:57 (one month ago) Permalink

The teenager she ran into reminded me of Louis C.K.'s petulant/entitled voice.

xp I can't watch those, they make me question any enjoyment I got out of what I just watched

change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 20:57 (one month ago) Permalink

i figured esp given her background she was suffering to some degree of postpartum depression, which is no joke

it wasn't really played as post-partum depression though, the problem was characterized as her being...exactly the same as before.

― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, April 18, 2017 3:56 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

totally disagree the handwringing over the breastfeeding and the "my baby hates me" stuff seemed to be pretty squarely conveying that

blonde redheads have more fun (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 21:07 (one month ago) Permalink

seemed more like post-partum frustration? i don't have kids though, so what do i know.

change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 18 April 2017 21:12 (one month ago) Permalink

I definitely skipped that article about bottle-feeders who are upset.

I didn't particularly love the episode or the ending of the series for various reasons...

but I watched it next to my wife who was breastfeeding at that moment, so a lot of it hit home.

Like, on one hand all that handwringing and that 'my baby hates me" stuff is like. pretty par for the course even without going as far as being described as post-partum depression. I'm not sure where that line is drawn between your totally expected freakouts about being a new parent and what is "officially" ppd and I'm not sure how important that is, but for that reason I didn't need the creators to discuss ppd to understand that she's under a particular stress and perhaps acting in an extreme version of who she always has been due to it.

But the complaint online about bottle-feeding, I mean, everything in that episode is 100% accurate about that stuff and totally fair and I can't believe any parent would be pissed off. Every single study shows benefits to breast feeding...and every single parent probably comes to terms with the fact that it's hard work and may not be doable and even if it's not, your kid can still turn out ok so you just do whatever works.

dan selzer, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 21:39 (one month ago) Permalink

I agree the show was pretty accurate, but the dialogue ("hey, this formula stuff is ok after all!") was like PSA-level risible.

I get the online bottle-feeding complaints - unfortunately. I used to work for a breasfeeding org, and there is more chance of resolving israel/palestine than the breast vs. formula people.

Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 22:07 (one month ago) Permalink

how did "fast car" become so ubiquitous? there was also a period in the early 00s when indie/avant garde artists embraced it and covered it (Xiu Xiu and Jim O'Rourke).

flappy bird, Monday, 24 April 2017 17:26 (one month ago) Permalink

I wanted to slap the shit out of Marnie during that part. Actually, during most parts.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Monday, 24 April 2017 20:23 (one month ago) Permalink

dan selzer, Monday, 24 April 2017 21:33 (one month ago) Permalink

dan selzer, Monday, 24 April 2017 21:34 (one month ago) Permalink


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