Why is casual racism/sexism more accepted in video games than other forms of media (these days)?

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okay lol @ Mario being so mainstreamed that all of the "MAMA MIA" and "IT'SA ME, MARIO!" interjections don't even register as caricature anymore

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

i disagree w/ ZS's assertion esp bc i think the most racist/sexist behavior re video games happens in their most collective experience (multiplayer)

Mordy, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah I think this is pretty easily chalked up to creators pandering to (and being born of) the overwhelmingly 15-35 male demographics of AAA game buyers. The women and men who like and play AAA games but don't like sexualized representations of women in these games (and also comic books) make their voices heard but the majority of the audience would be bummed if you took away their lizardwoman tits.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:57 (2 years ago) Permalink

duh DJP you cant be racist against italians anymore, the godfather fixed that forever

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 20:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

did Mario ever say those lines or are we forcing racism on the poor guy? are we blaming his video game char for his cartoon version? important issues in my work day

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:00 (2 years ago) Permalink

"it's a-me, Mario!" the sound of booting up Super Mario 64 iirc.

raw feel vegan (silby), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:01 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

lol gg then

bnw, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

fyi listening to that may drive you crazy

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:03 (2 years ago) Permalink

the Mario Kart one is also insane

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

"So long, gay Bowser!"

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:05 (2 years ago) Permalink

Alot of this sounds like hes sleeping with someone. *barfs*
PeachyzeldagirlXD 3 weeks ago

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:06 (2 years ago) Permalink

Do u say "ravioli!" when u fuckin?

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

did they really get roberto benigni to do the voices?

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:07 (2 years ago) Permalink

Everybody knows that Mario's wet dreams involve pasta and Bowser.

beanz meanz lulz (snoball), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:08 (2 years ago) Permalink

it's well documented that gaming community demographics are a) incredibly skewed towards white males and b) fairly skewed towards people with poor social skills, which seems like a believable cause of misogyny and just general misanthropy all around

I worked at a gaming geek/comic book store for a couple years and this kind of stuff is everywhere. the idea that females without massive bobs existed at some point is lost on these people

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

haha awesome typo

"I like the writer but does the artist have to make every female character's hair so big?"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'ma luigi. nambar wan.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man my old college roommate used to say "yeah, peach has got it" in a squeaky ass voice all the time. mad nostalgia.

goole, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

I never played the Horde side of WoW with any regularity so I didn't realize that the trolls were all Jamaican until way way late in the game when I started a troll character because I was bored. Reading the quest text for most of the starter area was PAINFUL.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's a ton of gender normalization in movies too, yeah?

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

im def not saying that movies are immune but i dont think you can make the argument that movies even approach the overt O_O aspects of video games wrt either of these

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

(I also used to play WoW with the sound off and either Vent or iTunes going, so I missed a good chunk of the voice acting)

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh yeah for sure, and movies as a genre are much more mature. but it seems to me that anytime you throw a lot of money at a project (either a blockbuster movie or a blockbuster game) you're gonna end up w/ some pretty unreasonable gender representations

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

re: relative badness of video games to movies, for that to be true then the racism/sexism would have to be toned down in game-to-movie adaptations, and it seems like in most cases it just got worse.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

also feel like games HAVE to make gamers empathize w/ the game in a way that movies do not - movies can take more risks that way

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Todd Solondz presents: Happiness, the Video Game

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:22 (2 years ago) Permalink

I always thought Tomb Raider the movie was made just to quiet all the feminist groups that complained about the video game, saying things like "no REAL woman could possibly look like that", well, lo and behold

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

also in movies you actually have real actresses whereas if you're making a game you can just crank up the boob slider

ciderpress, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

re: relative badness of video games to movies, for that to be true then the racism/sexism would have to be toned down in game-to-movie adaptations, and it seems like in most cases it just got worse.

Can you give an example of this? I think in many cases, it's more the medium of being presented something as a movie rather than a game making it easier to notice the source material's dodgier aspects.

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:24 (2 years ago) Permalink

i know i am probably missing some counterexamples here but it seems like the new fallout stuff has actually done a pretty good job of avoiding these pitfalls considering what a massive game francise its been

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

oh man I remember reading an interview with the creators of the first Tomb Raider game where the art director almost verbatim said "you're spending 20 hours staring at this character's bum so it might as well be a nice one"

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

also in movies you actually have real actresses whereas if you're making a game you can just crank up the boob slider

there are a few real actresses I'd like to introduce you to

Estimate the percent chance that a whale has ever been to the moon? (frogbs), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

casual sexism is pretty accepted in rap music, along with casual homophobia and racism in the form of anti-semitism

congratulations (n/a), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

I remember an interview with the creators of Tomb Raider, a few months before it came out, where they were like "if you're gonna spend the whole game looking at a butt it may as well be a really nice ass, high five broooooooseph *jumping chestbump*"

1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

WTF??? Xpost

1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

hahahaha

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

ha there is probably something to the idea that the minute graphics got past the 8-bit stage the next logical progression was for game designers to think "oh shit now we can model T&A far more accurately"

sfdgafhtehw (jjjusten), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

has anybody ever seen Z S and DJP in a room at the same time before

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

boob slider:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_or_Alive_Xtreme_Beach_Volleyball

dayo, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:28 (2 years ago) Permalink

also in movies you actually have real actresses whereas if you're making a game you can just crank up the boob slider

... why does my lizard lady have tits.

This thread is comedy username gold

og (admrl), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

wd play all the games with massive shadebobs

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=shadebobs&tbm=isch

instant coffee happening between us (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

Seriously didn't see that since I'm Zinging it and I'm slow. that interview was apparently very influential for us!

1986 tallest hair contest (Z S), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

The Dead or Alive series spent an inordinate amount of time working on a super accurate physics engine just so they could claim to be the fighting game with the most realistic breast bounces

lol this was xposted by dayo

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's something to the argument that the fleshing-out of things is responsible, and that more sophisticated graphics/sound enables greater racism/sexism, but the dodgier aspects of movies are made dodgier by the movie. it's not as if it somehow revealed ugliness lurking beneath, e.g. casting leguizamo as luigi in super mario movie.

Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

They didn't really say broseph - it was a more innocent time.

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

there's some interview w/ the doa creator where he says he cares about the physics so much because he considers all the female characters his daughters or something

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:32 (2 years ago) Permalink

wait, why is Leguizamo worthy of mention but BOB HOSKINS isn't

God, Music and Romeo and Juliet (DJP), Wednesday, 4 April 2012 21:33 (2 years ago) Permalink

I don't get any GG correlation with the Orphan Black stuff, either. Also, their phrases make sense unlike that "shield" terminology.

mh, Monday, 30 March 2015 17:08 (2 days ago) Permalink

The background for the foaming jugs - people horrified by developers paying attention to the wrong public.

― Andrew Farrell, Monday, March 30, 2015 12:17 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

uggggh why do i ever read the comments

i love how it's always ALWAYS assumed that the people complaining must be outsiders - - - insincere white knights or PC police or something rather than, for example, people working at the company who understandably would be annoyed by a "from all of us" kind of thing that suggests it's just one big den of locker room bro-culture dudes. What a gross place to work.

Doctor Casino, Monday, 30 March 2015 17:37 (2 days ago) Permalink

Yeah come on forks, if we insist everyone stops using the word "your" after the word "not" then THE TERRORISTS HAVE WON.

JimD, Tuesday, 31 March 2015 12:58 (Yesterday) Permalink

RIP Not Your Average Joe's

DJP, Tuesday, 31 March 2015 13:25 (Yesterday) Permalink

#NotYourJoe

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 31 March 2015 13:32 (Yesterday) Permalink

huh i stay meticulously up-to-date on both GG and orphan black, and i didn't think of GG at all when i saw that ad campaign. i also stay meticulously up-to-date on Outrage Tumblr and they haven't been yelling about it, so.

btw everyone should watch orphan black

bonkers candle ancestors (reddening), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 06:24 (16 hours ago) Permalink

A good read, though it's striking that

That may be the case in practise, but legislation regarding social media is underdeveloped. “It’s a grey area,” she says. "You wouldn’t say [to an applicant], ‘I’m not hiring you based on what you said on social media,’ you would find other reasons, like, ‘we found someone more qualified,’ or, ‘we don’t have the budget to fill this position right now.’ You can always come up with a (valid) reason not to hire someone.”

is being presented in the context of "Hooray we don't have to hire GG" when the same situation is far more commonly used for "Hooray we don't have to hire anyone other than white/asian straight boys".

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 10:53 (11 hours ago) Permalink

i don't actually believe that there's a lot of that going on -- purposefully not hiring people because they aren't white males. there's unintential bias, the old boys club (people tend to hire people they know, which tend to be white males who tend to hire white males, repeat repeat), the historical imbalance in comp-sci/programming....i really do not believe that any company ESPECIALLY any of the major companies would want to or engage in any soft or active discrimination

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 13:19 (9 hours ago) Permalink

also i mean this happens all the time, you bring in someone, they have a good resume, cover letter, experience, and then the vibe at the interview isn't good, they seem kind assholish or pushy or whatever, that's basically why you have interviews in the first place.

there's no litmus test where you dip someone into a test tube and it says "oh turned blue this is the best candidate", there's a whole spectrum of things you evaluate, exp, talent, personality, etc etc, this whole idea of "objectivity" and that complex social interactions and paradigms should be "scientific" and shit is one of the most frustrating aspects of GG

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 13:25 (9 hours ago) Permalink

xpost

er.... maybe not, but there are so many ineffables and unspokens in any hiring process. i mean i don't think i need to invent the wheel of gender discrimination here, but for one thing: people doing interviews think things like "will they mesh with the team?" or "do they seem like they have the right attitude?" and it turns out the same exact behaviors and signifiers that convey "chill" to a white male interviewer, when attached to a white male, instead convey "cold" and/or "not serious" when attached to someone else. combine that with tech/gamer stereotypes that particularly up the stakes of proving that they're not "fake gamers" or whatever - - - none of this would have to be conscious for it to matter. i do think the point about people's work networks and so on totally matters too, but i'm not ready to just optimistically assume that surely none of these male-dominated companies would have some kinds of unconscious biases.

to be fair, i have been thinking about these things lately in reference to academia, just listening to recent phds talk about the job market, etc. i was sitting in on a friend's mock job talk and the first point of feedback she got from a (female) tenured faculty member of some seniority was "don't put your hand on your hip during your talk," and be sure they see you smile more. my understanding is that in the real interview she (a) did end up putting her hand on her hip a couple of times and (b) got the job. so maybe things are changing...!

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 13:30 (9 hours ago) Permalink

IOW "the vibe at the interview isn't good, they seem kind of assholish or pushy or whatever" isn't a neutral response either, vis-a-vis gender. not trying to put you on the spot here UMS, just trying to imagine the kinds of dudes that work at some of these companies, and what would look like "pushy" to them from a male vs. female candidate. based on things like the 'foaming jugs' they desperately need more "pushy" women working there to say "um, fuck no," not that that would always help.

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 13:32 (9 hours ago) Permalink

Doctor Casino otm, but UMS also otm about how one of the most "want to pick them up and shake them" aspects of GG is the idea of objectivity, and in particular that they are the lightbringers of objectivity, that they are certainly not viewing this through an emotional lens, or with an inherent bias.

And also UMS otm about the question regarding hiring quotas is always "But it would be wrong that someone gets a job based on their race / gender", without ANY CLUE that this is actually what's already happening - "Why would someone not pick the best employee?"

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 13:49 (8 hours ago) Permalink

it turns out that people are really bad at picking the best employee

for some reason I just had a flashback to the Invader Zim cartoon episode where the title character decides he needs a "best friend" to blend in as human and tests possible friends for absorbency and electro-conductivity

mh, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 14:57 (7 hours ago) Permalink

i'm not disputing that there can be unconscious biases at work, or that how ppl perceived is def colored by perception as dr casino says

i was just referring to the article forks posted in specific, where GGers are saying "well they said that they aren't going to hire someone because they are GG, that's against the law" and i'm just saying well there are any number of ways in which you can come off in a negative light to perspective employee and that this idea that personality or fit on a team or ways of dealing with people isn't a part of the selection process (which obv could be for ill sometimes too) for a job.

which again is not to discount anythig dr casino said at all, that stuff is real and exists too. it's just this maddening GG emphasis on "objectivity" is, well, maddening to me

like on a base level "hey i've been engaged with an online movement that's actively harassing a woman at this company now she doesn't want to hire me! unfair!" is like well jesus christ do you guys understand how being a human being works?

overall, i think in some ways -- within the ACTUAL industry of professionals -- GG is probably having a positive effect in that it's putting a lot of the industry's bad aspects in a bigger lights...like for instance the the "foaming jugs" thing was terrible and studid, but hell they actually came to their sense and apoligized for it, 10 years ago or even 5 years ago that would have gone right by and nothing would have happened.

kurt kobaïan (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 15:36 (6 hours ago) Permalink

Aye, but isn't that due to one of the causes (or the causes of the causes) of GamerGate, that there is a larger and louder non-stereotypical gaming audience (and that said audience is more aware of this)?

Andrew Farrell, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 15:49 (6 hours ago) Permalink

yes?

The problem is that the stereotypical douchenozzles are fairly entrenched in actual game companies, due to the culture

mh, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 15:51 (6 hours ago) Permalink

To an extent, companies have encouraged that by pushing long work hours, ridiculous deadlines, and relatively low pay with the promise that working as a wage slave will lead to you being a game designer someday.

Industries like that end up trending young, male, and single. Because "traditional" gender roles end up with women being primary caregivers for children, forcing them out of workplaces that require ridiculous amounts of time in the office. Eventually you end up with a monoculture churning out variations of the same thing.

mh, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 15:55 (6 hours ago) Permalink

good pt

Nhex, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 16:21 (6 hours ago) Permalink

^ yep - and that's (probably) another unconscious bias in hiring

in addition to people who are not white 20-something dudes setting off "possibly not 'good cultural fit' with our existing team of white 20-something dudes <handwave about 'being on same wavelength'>" alarms, also the suspicion/realisation that no matter how into it they sound in the interview someone older/a woman might be less willing work long hours because they might have other things they'd rather do in the evening other than being all bros together bro-ing down on some hard code problems and caffeine until 10pm even though their contract and pay packet says 9-5

and even if the woman says "sure I love to code into the small hours because I love video games and it's what I do at home anyway" a little subconscious voice might be going "oh, you like it now, but what if you suddenly, inconveniently decide to have kids?"

(disclaimer: I have not worked in these jobs myself but friends have - although the worst offender I've heard of was at one of those "writing elite network code to shave microseconds off your trading lag" companies rather than game development)

undergraduate dance (a passing spacecadet), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 16:37 (5 hours ago) Permalink

i was just referring to the article forks posted in specific, where GGers are saying "well they said that they aren't going to hire someone because they are GG, that's against the law" and i'm just saying well there are any number of ways in which you can come off in a negative light to perspective employee and that this idea that personality or fit on a team or ways of dealing with people isn't a part of the selection process (which obv could be for ill sometimes too) for a job.

which again is not to discount anythig dr casino said at all, that stuff is real and exists too. it's just this maddening GG emphasis on "objectivity" is, well, maddening to me

oh yeah, 100% on board with you here! mea culpa, i reopened the thread this morning and kinda forgot the immediate context/news informing your comments.

mh right on about industry conditions. also may be that gamer values themselves dovetail alarmingly with a willingness to accept terrible conditions: tough-it-outness and a serious individualistic ethic that does not really translate well to, say, thinking of yourself as part of an oppressed class and deciding to join a union.

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 17:00 (5 hours ago) Permalink

(as always, i view these things partly with some overlap from my experience of the world of architecture, and my student friends who are at the point in their careers of taking terrible, underpaid, overworked internships which are just accepted as The Way It Goes, partly because that's exactly how school is and they have no models, and so on...)

Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 17:02 (5 hours ago) Permalink

Just getting through science classes in college is tough for a female. A friend of mine recently graduated and she had to deal w sexist bs. Took it to authorities and they didn't do anything and even tried covering things up. And this was experimental electronics, dealing in a lab, not videogames. I can imagine just going through gaming school is hell on earth.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 17:23 (5 hours ago) Permalink

There isn't really "gaming school" per se, although some schools have programs with specialties. Mostly you'll find people in graphic design or computer science.

mh, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 17:39 (4 hours ago) Permalink

Well yeah i meant sort of like programs. Like I went to the art school in a public college but I didn't go to Art School.

©Oz Quiz© (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 17:42 (4 hours ago) Permalink


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