Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

Note the "W", a notorious gang sign for "westside", the red is also likely for the bloods

haha ok, everyone's irrational prejudices and fears are valid, and it's okay to get scared and defensive about anything you want, good job everyone

― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, March 28, 2012 8:11 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well they are, and it is.

the problem w all of this is that the feeling of being at threat is not primarily a rational, intellectual response. it's usually an emotional one, rooted at least partially in instinct, nurture, prejudice, unexamined assumptions and unremembered experience. a person who has been traumatized (or even one who hasn't) may feel terribly threatened in perfectly safe situations, and our emotions are always "valid", even when others decide that they aren't warranted.

this is why our standards regarding appropriate justification for aggressive action can't be based simply on "feeling threatened". while everyone is free to run away or even call 911 in response to feelings of in-danger-ness, no matter how spurious, any aggressive response to perceived threats must be based on something more reliable and substantial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2X-R_PR6xs

have been trying and failing to find a youtube video for the Emperor Penguin song

i think a lot of the arguments on this thread are really chasing after red herrings.

i don't think it's evident that zimmerman felt "threatened"--there's not really evidence on the 9-1-1 call that he did. he just felt that there was some guy up to no good, and he should be stopped, whether by the police or (as it turned out) by zimmerman himself.

i mean this seems pretty cut and dried. there's no evidence that martin was trespassing or otherwise threatening anyone, and the fact that zimmerman chased him down in a public space means that, if anything, martin should have been protected by the "stand your ground" law, not zimmerman.

itt we pretend to be lawyers

i don't think it's evident that zimmerman felt "threatened"

i think there's plenty of evidence that he felt threatened by black people in general. wonder if he ever called 911 to report "suspicious" white kids.

but wait -- did he feel actively, personally "threatened"? or did he just feel "threatened" on behalf of the neighbors?

sometimes i call 911 when the cosby show comes on

i mean if you feel threatened you do not FOLLOW the person you are feeling threatened by. i think he may have thought that martin posed a "threat" (in terms of property theft) to his neighbors, but not a bodily threat to his person.

im actually a real lawyer itt

i'm using the word "threatened" a bit more broadly than you, amateurist. in the sense that you mean, i agree completely.

I'm pending bar admission. But I'm not giving legal advice, I'm just posting facebook profiles of the REAL TRAYVON

"i'm not a lawyer, but i do look like one..."

I'm just a simple country hyperchicken

hmm it's odd to me that the trayvon martin case seems to have disappeared from the NYT today

the fatigue of rage is despair

Going back into the criminal defense attorney headspace I actually used to occupy, this, if Zimmerman had been or ever is charged, is the kind of juicy case that you really want -- way easy to win, and easy to turn the focus onto the cops and the bad law. A good lawyer could win this one in a heartbeat and still sleep at night. Zimmerman's lawyer, however, is not acting like a criminal defense attorney but like a political lobbyist -- if that is what he is and he is correctly betting that no charges will be filed, it's good client advocacy (the real client not being Zimmerman but the NRA or some shit like that) that responsible citizens should NOT PAY ATTENTION TO.

how does the law in question construe "threat"? Is it in even explicit about this? does it validate force in response to the "threat" of property theft or --more likely i hope--limit the relevant "threat" to a threat of bodily harm?

i mean obviously i'm not sure either legitimately counts in this case but it might matter to a jury.

(i say it's illegitimate b/c we'd have to imagine that martin being young and black is enough to construe a threat of some kind, whether one of bodily harm or something else. bottom line is any law that encourages people to hurt other people is not a good law.)

you got a problem, homie?

WELL NOW YOU DO

Well, it's important to distinguish that the ridiculous law was not behind him calling the cops or stalking Trayvon. That crap law kicks in when it comes to the shooting, which wasn't done as a vigilante act but occurred (as far as any of us know) after they tussled. That is, as shoddy as I understand it to be, that Stand Your Ground law does not allow someone to stalk and shoot someone. Period. But it may be invoked to defend shooting someone after you feel "threatened," which in this case I guess specifically means after/during the fight. Which makes this less open and shut as it should be (that is, shooting an unarmed kid should always be manslaughter, but this case isn't that simple, though it should be).

if you guys loved me you'd stop using "Period" for emphasis -- it reminds me of every neanderthal conservative with whom I've ever tousled.

if you don't love me then don't worry about it.

Well, it's important to distinguish that the ridiculous law was not behind him calling the cops or stalking Trayvon.

idk a law that creates the kind of uncertainty you describe makes stalking someone with a gun, and putting yourself in a situation where shooting is more probable, seem less legally risky.

I will never do that again. Period.

oh dammit

Man, this Florida law is ten different kinds of fucked, though.

MIAMI -- A judge has dismissed a murder charge against a man who chased and fatally stabbed a suspected thief, citing the same self-defense law at the center of the Trayvon Martin case.

The "stand your ground" law gives a lot of leeway to use deadly force instead of retreating during a confrontation.

Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Beth Bloom ruled Tuesday that a bag of stolen car radios Pedro Roteta swung at Greyston Garcia amounted to a lethal threat. Bloom said Garcia "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property."

Garcia went home instead of calling 911 after the confrontation in January and later hid the knife and sold two of the radios.

holy shit

according to another article the guy chased him for 'more than a block' before stabbing him. jesus christ.

Is that judge trying to get the law thrown out? That is just madness to me.

Wow. You never, in any state, have the right to use deadly force to protect property. That has fuckall to do with "Stand Your Ground" and everything to do with lol Florida.

Aren't you allowed to shoot at people from your property in LOL Texas?

so basically in Florida anyone that wins a fight can take refuge in the law as long as the other guy dies

shit man in texas you can chase & shoot somebody for running off with your roommate's shit

y'all are welcome to visit Miami but don't pack hoodies

like I said in the other thread, can we get rid of states already

another crime prevented through stabbing.

In florida, as i recall, the stand your ground law allows deadly force in response to the "imminent commission of a forcible felony" or somesuch which is maybe a bigger deal than even the "duty to retreat" thing.

ABC News video features footage of Zimmerman from Sanford PD cameras the night of the shooting. He shows no signs of injury at all, not a spot of blood, and even if on-scene EMTs cleaned him up, there is no way that man has a broken nose.

Watched that. Can't see shit r: the guy's face.

I still want to know how long the girlfriend was on the phone while this went down. Obviously as long as the shooting, right? So he just kept her on the line?

(Not saying there's anything wrong with this, just weird that he didn't hang up on her)

CNN.com

wikipedia.org

inquiring minds want to know

re: gf phone call, have any of zimmerman's statements said trayvon was on the phone? I remember "hands in his waistband" etc, but iirc the call with the girlfriend was happening for quite awhile, not just after trayvon tried to duck Zimmerman, right? Makes me think zimmerman's accounts are not only inaccurate, but he may not be really that observant?

i can tell you how long she was on the phone but i charge $100/hr for internet research

Surely you could have provided a little pro bono tidbit there. Fuck a cnn.com. I get my news from ILX.

my understanding is that she last heard trayvon yelling DIE HONKIE DIE and then the phone went dead

tbf, I see homicide-inducing cell phone use all the time.

He appears well built, hardly the portly young man depicted in a 2005 mug shot