Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

^ Sure that sentence is heard at least once a day in every household with small kids.

but j0rdan the context itt of stating what is and isn't a 'valid' reason to be threatened is that Zimmermann did call the cops as a result of this feeling of being 'threatened'. had he not approached Trayvon and there had been no gunshots, the cop that showed up probably would have told him something like "let's not call us for something like this again, k?" (from my knowledge of this particular police dept and their laziness).

when I said you have to make your mental illness your own, to be frank...I'm one of the most overanxious dudes in the entire world. if someone approachs me in public, or in my car, even if it's to ask for directions, my eyes go to the ground and I usually start getting tense. I'm often paranoid to the point of ridiculousness and still even if haven't called 911 on somebody who was doing something as innocuous as loitering.

when I said you have to make your mental illness your own, to be frank...I'm one of the most overanxious dudes in the entire world. if someone approachs me in public, or in my car, even if it's to ask for directions, my eyes go to the ground and I usually start getting tense. I'm often paranoid to the point of ridiculousness and still even if haven't called 911 on somebody who was doing something as innocuous as loitering.

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 11:41 AM (3 seconds ago) Bookmark

this doesn't sound like a mental illness tbf, and i'm not sure george zimmerman was mentally ill (maybe he was), but telling mentally ill people to "own" their illnesses is pretty fucked up, i think

and i guess it's not really fair for me to tell you if you do or don't have a menta illness, but anyway this isn't really germane

val·id   [val-id]
adjective
1. sound; just; well-founded: a valid reason.
2. producing the desired result; effective: a valid antidote for gloom.
3. having force, weight, or cogency; authoritative.
4. legally sound, effective, or binding; having legal force: a valid contract.

if someone approachs me in public, or in my car, even if it's to ask for directions, my eyes go to the ground and I usually start getting tense

^Suspicious. I'm calling the cops.

I've explained what I meant, J0rdan, in my follow-up post...and being someone who suffers from mental illness myself and have described such sufferings ad nauseaum in other threads, I am in no way condemning people with mental illnesses.

what I am saying is at some point you have to realize the problem is not with other people, but with YOU if you're the one calling the cops on everyone for just loitering. Zimmermann clearly has delusions, borderline Travis Bickel delusions, and yet continues to insist it's everyone else and not he who is wrong. He needs treatment...badly.

awritte this thread has finally hit clusterfuck levels, i'm outtie until there's a new update in the story

no wait come back

I think I get what bjo is saying, crazy people just need to man up

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rTF31oSVwMU/S9yHqybEmlI/AAAAAAAABm4/Kh8MiZQmTiA/down%20the%20rabbit%20hole%20alice%20falling_thumb%5B7%5D.jpg

lol wtf r u self centered idiots arguing about itt, the word "valid"??

also btw ppl with mental illness often do "own" their condition, it's called insight

i wouldn't frame it in terms of mental illness, i would just say "your stupid irrational prejudices are your own responsibility and do not merit validation or excuse" xp

Email I got today from the liberal group People for the American Way:

The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) is a front group for powerful corporate interests that is behind and actually writes some of the most extreme right-wing bills in state legislatures across the country. ALEC is behind many of the disenfranchising voter ID laws that have been passed … it was behind the infamous Arizona immigration bill … and ALEC was behind the “shoot first,” “stand your ground” law in Florida that has been often cited as a contributing factor in the shooting death of 17-year-olf Trayvon Martin.

Please join us at a rally outside ALEC’s DC office at 1101 Vermont Ave., NW Thursday -- tomorrow -- at noon

dunno who saw it but Colbert's piece on this was great

btw all these attempts to smear Martin's name are insane, its like they're trying to imply that him smoking pot makes him a little more worthy of murder

good frog

Krugman had a great piece on ALEC the other day. Lobbyists, Guns and Money

Posted this on my FB earlier:

Some people who've seen fit to comment on the Trayvon Martin tragedy seem hellbent on sending race relations back a century. Here's to hoping no one will ever again have to deal with the indignity of loathsome people dredging up peripheral and meaningless details of their murdered loved one's life in an attempt to shift blame to the victim. And if you're comfortable with arguing that an unarmed black kid deserved to be shot to death because he'd been suspended from school or because he had "thuggish" pictures on his Facebook, I'm comfortable calling you a straight-up racist.

We have reached Peak Stupid; I repeat, we have reached Peak Stupid!

Rep. Bobby Rush (D-Ill.) staged a hoodie protest on the floor of the House today, donning a grey hooded sweatshirt (and sunglasses?) to draw attention to the murder of Trayvon Martin. You can't wear hats in the House, so he got thrown out.

Video at http://gawker.com/5897117/rep-bobby-rush-ejected-from-house-floor-for-wearing-a-hoodie

lol was just coming to post that

fuck washing a hoodie

the creators of South Park must be thrilled right now, it's like an entire episode just got written for them

oh man Last night the nice old man who lives next door to me (with Bush and Santorum bumper stickers) tried to recruit me for the neighborhood watch. He did say "we're not allowed to carry guns" fwiw

You guys, I'm actually starting to have doubts about this. Apparently Trayvon posted pictures of himself running from the scene of a burglary on his facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001159564411

Note the "W", a notorious gang sign for "westside", the red is also likely for the bloods

haha ok, everyone's irrational prejudices and fears are valid, and it's okay to get scared and defensive about anything you want, good job everyone

― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, March 28, 2012 8:11 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well they are, and it is.

the problem w all of this is that the feeling of being at threat is not primarily a rational, intellectual response. it's usually an emotional one, rooted at least partially in instinct, nurture, prejudice, unexamined assumptions and unremembered experience. a person who has been traumatized (or even one who hasn't) may feel terribly threatened in perfectly safe situations, and our emotions are always "valid", even when others decide that they aren't warranted.

this is why our standards regarding appropriate justification for aggressive action can't be based simply on "feeling threatened". while everyone is free to run away or even call 911 in response to feelings of in-danger-ness, no matter how spurious, any aggressive response to perceived threats must be based on something more reliable and substantial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2X-R_PR6xs

have been trying and failing to find a youtube video for the Emperor Penguin song

i think a lot of the arguments on this thread are really chasing after red herrings.

i don't think it's evident that zimmerman felt "threatened"--there's not really evidence on the 9-1-1 call that he did. he just felt that there was some guy up to no good, and he should be stopped, whether by the police or (as it turned out) by zimmerman himself.

i mean this seems pretty cut and dried. there's no evidence that martin was trespassing or otherwise threatening anyone, and the fact that zimmerman chased him down in a public space means that, if anything, martin should have been protected by the "stand your ground" law, not zimmerman.

itt we pretend to be lawyers

i don't think it's evident that zimmerman felt "threatened"

i think there's plenty of evidence that he felt threatened by black people in general. wonder if he ever called 911 to report "suspicious" white kids.

but wait -- did he feel actively, personally "threatened"? or did he just feel "threatened" on behalf of the neighbors?

sometimes i call 911 when the cosby show comes on

i mean if you feel threatened you do not FOLLOW the person you are feeling threatened by. i think he may have thought that martin posed a "threat" (in terms of property theft) to his neighbors, but not a bodily threat to his person.

im actually a real lawyer itt

i'm using the word "threatened" a bit more broadly than you, amateurist. in the sense that you mean, i agree completely.

I'm pending bar admission. But I'm not giving legal advice, I'm just posting facebook profiles of the REAL TRAYVON

"i'm not a lawyer, but i do look like one..."

I'm just a simple country hyperchicken

hmm it's odd to me that the trayvon martin case seems to have disappeared from the NYT today

the fatigue of rage is despair

Going back into the criminal defense attorney headspace I actually used to occupy, this, if Zimmerman had been or ever is charged, is the kind of juicy case that you really want -- way easy to win, and easy to turn the focus onto the cops and the bad law. A good lawyer could win this one in a heartbeat and still sleep at night. Zimmerman's lawyer, however, is not acting like a criminal defense attorney but like a political lobbyist -- if that is what he is and he is correctly betting that no charges will be filed, it's good client advocacy (the real client not being Zimmerman but the NRA or some shit like that) that responsible citizens should NOT PAY ATTENTION TO.

how does the law in question construe "threat"? Is it in even explicit about this? does it validate force in response to the "threat" of property theft or --more likely i hope--limit the relevant "threat" to a threat of bodily harm?

i mean obviously i'm not sure either legitimately counts in this case but it might matter to a jury.

(i say it's illegitimate b/c we'd have to imagine that martin being young and black is enough to construe a threat of some kind, whether one of bodily harm or something else. bottom line is any law that encourages people to hurt other people is not a good law.)

you got a problem, homie?

WELL NOW YOU DO

Well, it's important to distinguish that the ridiculous law was not behind him calling the cops or stalking Trayvon. That crap law kicks in when it comes to the shooting, which wasn't done as a vigilante act but occurred (as far as any of us know) after they tussled. That is, as shoddy as I understand it to be, that Stand Your Ground law does not allow someone to stalk and shoot someone. Period. But it may be invoked to defend shooting someone after you feel "threatened," which in this case I guess specifically means after/during the fight. Which makes this less open and shut as it should be (that is, shooting an unarmed kid should always be manslaughter, but this case isn't that simple, though it should be).

if you guys loved me you'd stop using "Period" for emphasis -- it reminds me of every neanderthal conservative with whom I've ever tousled.

if you don't love me then don't worry about it.