Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

someone's clothing or appearance might be a reason for you or me to feel threatened, but i wouldn't generally say it's a good or "perfectly valid" reason

It's not perfect, but it's valid.

at mean at some point in your life you have to own that your mental illness is your own.

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 10:51 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is kind of idiotic, just fwiw

i mean it's valid to feel threatened by whatever you want... but the threshold for approaching someone with a loaded gun is much, MUCH higher -- arguably unattainably high

And not a person on this thread is arguing otherwise.

We done here?

haha ok, everyone's irrational prejudices and fears are valid, and it's okay to get scared and defensive about anything you want, good job everyone

I mean Josh you are now just arguing over what the word "valid" means. Most people take it to mean something like "logically consistent". You want to use it to mean something like "true from my point of view". There can be no agreement if the definition is that divergent.

You're probably right. But I guess I'd argue that "logically consistent" is an unattainable standard outside of the realm of hard science.

Anyway, that's moot, really.

i just avoided getting into a taxi because the driver was wearing a turban. totally valid reason!

i'm afraid those italian-looking guys in shiny suits at the next table might be in the mob! check please! valid.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

i mean it's valid to feel threatened by whatever you want... but the threshold for approaching someone with a loaded gun is much, MUCH higher -- arguably unattainably high

― J0rdan S., Wednesday, March 28, 2012 10:05 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark

conflating 'valid' with 'valid reason to call the cops'

i mean by the logic i'm seeing itt we're basically saying 'hey if someone feels threatened by all black ppl it's perfectly ok for him to call the cops when he sees one on the sidewalk'

conflating 'valid' with 'valid reason to call the cops'

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 11:36 AM (38 seconds ago) Bookmark

no i wasn't doing that at all

i'm afraid those italian-looking guys in shiny suits at the next table might be in the mob! check please! valid.

Yeah but you didn't grab your gun and follow them to their cars.

worst episode of MADE ever

Elmo, I think you're being silly.

^ Sure that sentence is heard at least once a day in every household with small kids.

but j0rdan the context itt of stating what is and isn't a 'valid' reason to be threatened is that Zimmermann did call the cops as a result of this feeling of being 'threatened'. had he not approached Trayvon and there had been no gunshots, the cop that showed up probably would have told him something like "let's not call us for something like this again, k?" (from my knowledge of this particular police dept and their laziness).

when I said you have to make your mental illness your own, to be frank...I'm one of the most overanxious dudes in the entire world. if someone approachs me in public, or in my car, even if it's to ask for directions, my eyes go to the ground and I usually start getting tense. I'm often paranoid to the point of ridiculousness and still even if haven't called 911 on somebody who was doing something as innocuous as loitering.

when I said you have to make your mental illness your own, to be frank...I'm one of the most overanxious dudes in the entire world. if someone approachs me in public, or in my car, even if it's to ask for directions, my eyes go to the ground and I usually start getting tense. I'm often paranoid to the point of ridiculousness and still even if haven't called 911 on somebody who was doing something as innocuous as loitering.

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 11:41 AM (3 seconds ago) Bookmark

this doesn't sound like a mental illness tbf, and i'm not sure george zimmerman was mentally ill (maybe he was), but telling mentally ill people to "own" their illnesses is pretty fucked up, i think

and i guess it's not really fair for me to tell you if you do or don't have a menta illness, but anyway this isn't really germane

val·id   [val-id]
adjective
1. sound; just; well-founded: a valid reason.
2. producing the desired result; effective: a valid antidote for gloom.
3. having force, weight, or cogency; authoritative.
4. legally sound, effective, or binding; having legal force: a valid contract.

if someone approachs me in public, or in my car, even if it's to ask for directions, my eyes go to the ground and I usually start getting tense

^Suspicious. I'm calling the cops.

I've explained what I meant, J0rdan, in my follow-up post...and being someone who suffers from mental illness myself and have described such sufferings ad nauseaum in other threads, I am in no way condemning people with mental illnesses.

what I am saying is at some point you have to realize the problem is not with other people, but with YOU if you're the one calling the cops on everyone for just loitering. Zimmermann clearly has delusions, borderline Travis Bickel delusions, and yet continues to insist it's everyone else and not he who is wrong. He needs treatment...badly.

awritte this thread has finally hit clusterfuck levels, i'm outtie until there's a new update in the story

no wait come back

I think I get what bjo is saying, crazy people just need to man up

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rTF31oSVwMU/S9yHqybEmlI/AAAAAAAABm4/Kh8MiZQmTiA/down%20the%20rabbit%20hole%20alice%20falling_thumb%5B7%5D.jpg

lol wtf r u self centered idiots arguing about itt, the word "valid"??

also btw ppl with mental illness often do "own" their condition, it's called insight

i wouldn't frame it in terms of mental illness, i would just say "your stupid irrational prejudices are your own responsibility and do not merit validation or excuse" xp

Email I got today from the liberal group People for the American Way:

The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) is a front group for powerful corporate interests that is behind and actually writes some of the most extreme right-wing bills in state legislatures across the country. ALEC is behind many of the disenfranchising voter ID laws that have been passed … it was behind the infamous Arizona immigration bill … and ALEC was behind the “shoot first,” “stand your ground” law in Florida that has been often cited as a contributing factor in the shooting death of 17-year-olf Trayvon Martin.

Please join us at a rally outside ALEC’s DC office at 1101 Vermont Ave., NW Thursday -- tomorrow -- at noon

dunno who saw it but Colbert's piece on this was great

btw all these attempts to smear Martin's name are insane, its like they're trying to imply that him smoking pot makes him a little more worthy of murder

good frog

Krugman had a great piece on ALEC the other day. Lobbyists, Guns and Money

Posted this on my FB earlier:

Some people who've seen fit to comment on the Trayvon Martin tragedy seem hellbent on sending race relations back a century. Here's to hoping no one will ever again have to deal with the indignity of loathsome people dredging up peripheral and meaningless details of their murdered loved one's life in an attempt to shift blame to the victim. And if you're comfortable with arguing that an unarmed black kid deserved to be shot to death because he'd been suspended from school or because he had "thuggish" pictures on his Facebook, I'm comfortable calling you a straight-up racist.

We have reached Peak Stupid; I repeat, we have reached Peak Stupid!

Rep. Bobby Rush (D-Ill.) staged a hoodie protest on the floor of the House today, donning a grey hooded sweatshirt (and sunglasses?) to draw attention to the murder of Trayvon Martin. You can't wear hats in the House, so he got thrown out.

Video at http://gawker.com/5897117/rep-bobby-rush-ejected-from-house-floor-for-wearing-a-hoodie

lol was just coming to post that

fuck washing a hoodie

the creators of South Park must be thrilled right now, it's like an entire episode just got written for them

oh man Last night the nice old man who lives next door to me (with Bush and Santorum bumper stickers) tried to recruit me for the neighborhood watch. He did say "we're not allowed to carry guns" fwiw

You guys, I'm actually starting to have doubts about this. Apparently Trayvon posted pictures of himself running from the scene of a burglary on his facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001159564411

Note the "W", a notorious gang sign for "westside", the red is also likely for the bloods

haha ok, everyone's irrational prejudices and fears are valid, and it's okay to get scared and defensive about anything you want, good job everyone

― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Wednesday, March 28, 2012 8:11 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

well they are, and it is.

the problem w all of this is that the feeling of being at threat is not primarily a rational, intellectual response. it's usually an emotional one, rooted at least partially in instinct, nurture, prejudice, unexamined assumptions and unremembered experience. a person who has been traumatized (or even one who hasn't) may feel terribly threatened in perfectly safe situations, and our emotions are always "valid", even when others decide that they aren't warranted.

this is why our standards regarding appropriate justification for aggressive action can't be based simply on "feeling threatened". while everyone is free to run away or even call 911 in response to feelings of in-danger-ness, no matter how spurious, any aggressive response to perceived threats must be based on something more reliable and substantial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2X-R_PR6xs

have been trying and failing to find a youtube video for the Emperor Penguin song

i think a lot of the arguments on this thread are really chasing after red herrings.

i don't think it's evident that zimmerman felt "threatened"--there's not really evidence on the 9-1-1 call that he did. he just felt that there was some guy up to no good, and he should be stopped, whether by the police or (as it turned out) by zimmerman himself.

i mean this seems pretty cut and dried. there's no evidence that martin was trespassing or otherwise threatening anyone, and the fact that zimmerman chased him down in a public space means that, if anything, martin should have been protected by the "stand your ground" law, not zimmerman.

itt we pretend to be lawyers