Let's talk about Trayvon Martin, George Zimmerman, and how unbelievably fucked up this all is

Who are this guy's supporters other than straight-up racists at this point?

what is that, only like 1 in 3 white people?

Fair point.

i mean i know there are many more racists out there than that one white guy w/ his two non-racist friends but that is the intersection between "this guys supporters" and "straight-up racists"

i notice something though, among this guys supporters. a lot of them talk about "thugs", as in "when did a thug ever stand his ground?" or "when did a thug follow and handgun rule" or "dress like a thug die like a thug"

is that like, an actual thing that nra supporters worry about? thugs loose on the street, stealing jewelry with screwdrivers, selling weed and defacing the hallways?

Yes.

it's like a particular stereotype?

i feel like it's not a word i hear out on the west coast, or if i do, it can refer to lots of different types of people.

or does it just mean people who dress like they're in rap videos?

i live on the west coast, and i feel like it's a common way for racists to describe certain young black men

inferring criminality & stupidity from dress & way of speaking

Thugs = those multiracial bands of bandanna-wearing bad guys you see in Michael Jackson videos and post-apocalyptic films of the 80s.

should be called 'snipes'

[T Sowell]
There is no point in dressing like a hoodlum when you are not a hoodlum, even though that has become a fashion for some minority youths

[Nascar Pony]
dressing like a hoodlum has lately become a fashion for minority youths? and not, like, all youths, sine the invention of the teenager?

Also, isn't that first quote getting it p much backwards or even close to circular, I mean isn't perception of "hoodlum dress" actually somewhat *determined* by how "youth on the street" dress?

not to mention HE WASN'T DRESSED LIKE A HOODLUM

http://www.falconmotorcycles.com/images/stories/news/amaryllis_ian/marlon_brando_wild_one_13_rebels.jpg

most of this is all coming from that pic of the wrong Trayvon that is circulating on the web but regardless of whether it was or wasn't him it was irrelevant. We, really, in America, right now, in 2012, are debating what attire makes someone worthy of being treated like a thug.

sorry but hoodies are awesome. if it wasn't always 93 degrees in FL I'd wear them way more often. but then again I'm white so I wouldn't be considered a 'thug', I'd be 'stylish', rite?

fuckthisshit

oh boy too many years of reading the SFGate comments section has proven that 'thug' is alive and well as a not-really-disguised-at-all racist callout on the west coast. so many grisly comments after every shooting, during the oscar grant riots and trials, etc.
the SFGate comments section is an all time cesspool.

All newspaper comments sections are cesspools. Cleveland.com readers managed to turn an article about Case Western students inventing a new temporary pothole fix into a racial dustup.

yea srsly just don't read em

I think how one comports oneself and how one dresses are perfectly valid reasons for someone to feel "threatened," depending on the context. But as many on this thread have noted, they are literally never an excuse to shoot someone. Guy wanted to be a dick, guy's allowed to call the police. Guy shouldn't be allowed to follow, shoot and kill a kid. Period.

"valid" != "understandable"

sorry but hoodies are awesome. if it wasn't always 93 degrees in FL I'd wear them way more often. but then again I'm white so I wouldn't be considered a 'thug', I'd be 'stylish', rite?

no

It's totally "valid," depending on the context. I don't think it was in this case, though. Though it was "understandable," given this guy was likely a racist vigilante.

'stylish' is not a word i usually associate with hoodies or white floridians tbhw/u

you guys haven't seen stylish until you've seen a white Canadian with sunburnt knees walking down Ocean Drive.

I think how one comports oneself and how one dresses are perfectly valid reasons for someone to feel "threatened"

wrong

It is valid to feel threatened by someone based on how they are behaving towards you; for example, if they are staring at you, shouting at you, running after you, grabbing you, pointing a weapon at you, etc etc etc. What a person is wearing plays into how some of these actions are interpreted but that doesn't make the response "valid" unless all subconscious responses are "valid".

Someone wearing dark clothing walking down the sidewalk is not automatically a suspicious person. Someone wearing dark clothing peering into a first floor window while hiding behind a bush is suspicious, but not because they are wearing dark clothing.

I think how one comports oneself and how one dresses are perfectly valid reasons for someone to feel "threatened," depending on the context. But as many on this thread have noted, they are literally never an excuse to shoot someone. Guy wanted to be a dick, guy's allowed to call the police. Guy shouldn't be allowed to follow, shoot and kill a kid. Period.

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 28 March 2012 13:31 (42 minutes ago) Permalink

Maybe if they are walking straight toward you? But what does this have to do with choosing to follow someone?

It really baffles me that this is a law. God help this country once we get commercial-class drones.

hey i'm sure certain ppl feel "threatened" by a man in woman's clothing

depends on what kind of bar you're in

Like I said, the "following" part - plus of course the shooting part - was totally unjustified and invalid. But feeling threatened is an entirely subjective thing, short of being literally threatened. If I see a dude rocking a shaved head and swastika, I'm crossing the street.

I'm speaking generally, of course. Dude in a hoodie is not threatening (to me). But that other dude still had every right to call the cops if he was getting weird vibes, racist weird vibes or no. And then he should have been arrested for following and shooting the kid, no matter the context.

Y'know, I'm a pretty little dude, and sometimes when I've walked alone at night in rough neighborhoods, I'd kinda hunch over and start muttering to myself in the hopes that anyone who might've considered fucking with me will maybe question whether it's worth the hassle. In the spirit of that, I'm okay with Trayvon adopting whatever pose he needed to in order to (unsuccessfully) fend off some strange dude who was trailing him. That shit must've been like a horror movie to him, and it breaks my heart the more I think of the particulars of being in his shoes that night.

josh your argument validates a lot of stupid horrible reasons for feeling threatened and i don't understand how it's even relevant

But feeling threatened is an entirely subjective thing, short of being literally threatened.

This sentence is way more on point for Martin in this situation than it is for Zimmerman. He was being fucking followed!

For sure, 100%! That's why that law is fucked up. It makes no sense. But Trayvon had every right to react however he did, just as Zimmerman did (calling the police, not the following and shooting, obviously). That sort of shit happens all the time, sometimes for good reason, sometimes for bad reasons, but no one gets hurt.

Elmo, my point is that there have been a number of times I've felt threatened - not to mention called the police - for reasons beyond "I am being attacked." People have the right to feel threatened.

wtf dude you don't have the right to call the cops simply cuz the presence of somebody makes you uncomfortable if they aren't doing anything to make you feel that way!

at mean at some point in your life you have to own that your mental illness is your own.

But feeling threatened is an entirely subjective thing, short of being literally threatened. If I see a dude rocking a shaved head and swastika, I'm crossing the street.

OTM. This is a huge hole in the dude's story. If you are threatened you want to get away from what is threatening you, not get closer to it.

not if you're a self-appointed sheriff like Zimmerman.

Zimmerman apparently called the police on black men an awful lot. Even on little children. And apparently thought 911 was for things like potholes, garbage and stray dogs.

It seems more and more likely that this dude was a real-life Travis Bickle.

weird vibes is kind of my default social interaction

And no one is arguing that. Like I've been saying, I'm speaking generally. This Zimmerman dude was itching for wrongdoing.

Anyway, anecdotal case in point. I was in my backyard during the day, trying to watch the kids run around, when I see some dude out the corner of my eye start wandering down my driveway toward the backyard. I yelled at him to stop and go away, and he did. But I still called the police. Where I live, people's houses get burgled during the day all the time, crimes of opportunity. My house has been robbed during the day, where someone snuck in, grabbed a couple of things (camera, phone) and disappeared, all in a five minute window. So was I threatened? No. Was I suspicious. Yes. And the cops told me I did the right thing.

xpost ish.

I mean, I'd be lying if I claimed I was such a hard, city-dwelling dude that nothing scared or fazed me, but it happens.

wtf dude you don't have the right to call the cops simply cuz the presence of somebody makes you uncomfortable if they aren't doing anything to make you feel that way!

You can call the cops anytime you like, but in a perfect world, you'd face the consequences of calling the cops over bullshit. Just like in a perfect world you'd at least be arrested and face a trial if you shot a kid to death.

His calling the police wasn't really the issue here anyway. It's pretty much superfluous to what happened, given that he decided to play police himself.

someone's clothing or appearance might be a reason for you or me to feel threatened, but i wouldn't generally say it's a good or "perfectly valid" reason

It's not perfect, but it's valid.

at mean at some point in your life you have to own that your mental illness is your own.

― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, March 28, 2012 10:51 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

this is kind of idiotic, just fwiw

i mean it's valid to feel threatened by whatever you want... but the threshold for approaching someone with a loaded gun is much, MUCH higher -- arguably unattainably high

And not a person on this thread is arguing otherwise.