oh man, that girl's account. :( this is the worst story.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:06 (twelve years ago) link
I guess it's just my personal feeling that hate crime laws should be reserved for cases where the point of the crime is to express hate or to intimidate a racial group, not just cases where racial bias played a significant role. At the same time, given the joke that is Florida justice in cases like this, I won't actually be unhappy with Feds intervening.
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:07 (twelve years ago) link
i think zimmerman certainly intended to intimidate a racial group. he viewed it as self-defense against that racial group's depravity. that's hatred, isn't it?
i don't know how i feel about hate crimes legislation but george zimmerman needs to be off the streets.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:09 (twelve years ago) link
I guess it's just my personal feeling that hate crime laws should be reserved for cases where the point of the crime is to express hate or to intimidate a racial group, not just cases where racial bias played a significant role.
The distinction you believe you are making is nonexistent.
― thuggish ruggish Brahms (DJP), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:10 (twelve years ago) link
djp otmfm
― stan this sick bunt (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:11 (twelve years ago) link
yeah that's more to the point
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:11 (twelve years ago) link
I don't agree, because I think there are different levels of intent at work. "I'm going to kill that black guy because he's black" is different than "I'm going to kill that black guy because I am suspicious of what he's doing in my gated community (in large part because I have a warped perception of black people)" even as fucked up as the latter is.
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:13 (twelve years ago) link
Hate crime legislation exists specifically because racial bias has done a wonderful job of keeping people from actually being prosecuted under existing statutes for crimes that already exist. If the police department had done its job and if Florida didn't have this insane "stand your ground" law, the Federal government wouldn't need to investigate this at all, let alone invoke any hate crime statutes.
― thuggish ruggish Brahms (DJP), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:14 (twelve years ago) link
Seriously, Hurting, BAIL on that argument. ABORT!! ABORT!!!!!
― Three Word Username, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:15 (twelve years ago) link
By your logic, it's not a hate crime for a white neighbor to burn a cross on the lawn of the only black family in town.
― thuggish ruggish Brahms (DJP), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:15 (twelve years ago) link
"I'm going to kill that black guy because he's black" is different than "I'm going to kill that black guy because I am suspicious of what he's doing in my gated community (in large part because I have a warped perception of black people)" even as fucked up as the latter is.
I don't see the difference
― the sir edmund hillary of sitting through pauly shore films (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:15 (twelve years ago) link
One is racist assholism with delusion, one is racist assholism without?
― aka vanilla bean (remy bean), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:17 (twelve years ago) link
― thuggish ruggish Brahms (DJP), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:15 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
No, that would be a perfect example of a hate crime, because it's obvious that the whole purpose of the crime is to intimidate based on race. I mean THAT'S why you have hate crime laws -- because otherwise burning a cross, which is a horribly fucked up and violent act, would just be petty vandalism.
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:18 (twelve years ago) link
killing a black dude because you're racist is pretty intimidating to other black people fyi
― the sir edmund hillary of sitting through pauly shore films (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:19 (twelve years ago) link
what about "i'm going to kill that black guy because he whistled at a white woman (in large part because i have a warped perception of black people"
― the late great, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:19 (twelve years ago) link
as george zimmerman has proven to be a clear danger to black people, the obvious answer, under florida law, is for a black person to shoot him in self defense.
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:20 (twelve years ago) link
hoos gay co-worker thread to thread
― less of the same (darraghmac), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:20 (twelve years ago) link
i might not recall correctly, forgive me, but i thought that hate crime legislation only provided for increased sentencing on crimes found to be motivated by racial bias?
― i think this is serious (elmo argonaut), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:20 (twelve years ago) link
― the late great, Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:19 PM (25 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah exactly. ps killing black men because they're all intent on robbing you is the SAME RACIAL MYTHOLOGY as black men will rape all your white women because they're oversexed brutes.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:21 (twelve years ago) link
I realize that this is not an argument I really want to keep making for much longer, but I still think there's a distinction. But "he whistled at a white woman" is pretty categorically different from "I unreasonably thought he was a burglar."
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:21 (twelve years ago) link
mookie i have already done that joke, keep up!
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:21 (twelve years ago) link
sorry, tracer
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:21 (twelve years ago) link
― the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:21 PM (23 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
no. there's a cultural attitude we're isolating here and it's about an image of black men that is pretty disgusting and familiar.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:22 (twelve years ago) link
also hilariously backward. again, who is a threat to whom here.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:23 (twelve years ago) link
as far as I know, federal hate crime legislation involves penalty enhancement, not new categories of crimes? (prosecution under civil rights violations is sort of a separate and prior category).
― s.clover, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:24 (twelve years ago) link
i'm sort of surprised that the guy who walks around with a LOADED GUN AT 4 IN THE MORNING, FOLLOWING PEOPLE wasn't reported to the cops a few times.
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:24 (twelve years ago) link
he's fighting the good fight
― aka vanilla bean (remy bean), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:25 (twelve years ago) link
he's dirty harry out there
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:26 (twelve years ago) link
puke
it's okay cuz he's not black do you see
― the sir edmund hillary of sitting through pauly shore films (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:28 (twelve years ago) link
glad to hear there's some solid, case-related evidence that would support a hate-crimes prosecution. referring to the slur on the tape. was waiting (and, forgive me, hoping) for that. and yeah, i know that the feds can't prosecute the murder/manslaughter charges themselves, but they can put pressure on local police and the DA's office by suggesting that they're acting improperly in failing to prosecute - or at least i think they could do this.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:31 (twelve years ago) link
so one could conceivably kill anyone, on a whim, and as long as no-one else saw it claim it was self defense and get away with it? really? for real?
― ledge, Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:45 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
yeah, absolutely. it's happened before.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:32 (twelve years ago) link
even if we have every reason to doubt his character and state of mind, i suspect that his story will be awfully difficult to unambiguously disprove in a court of law.
Trials . . . do not work that way?
― butvi wouls (Phil D.), Tuesday, March 20, 2012 8:49 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
um, i think they do? the prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that zimmerman's story was false, that he acted recklessly or with malice of intent.
thankfully, now that other evidence is being revealed, this seems more likely than when i argued earlier that it would be difficult.
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:34 (twelve years ago) link
I wasn't entirely comfortable with this being considered a hate crime until I heard Zimmerman's remark in that 911 call (I don't think I would've ever have made it out if it wasn't pointed out).
Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally "interesting" that the 911 operator asks Zimmerman if the suspect is black or Hispanic.
― Soggy Cheeseburgers (Deric W. Haircare), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:37 (twelve years ago) link
the prosecution would have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that zimmerman's story was false, that he acted recklessly or with malice of intent.
No, the jury never gets to hear Zimmerman's story unless he takes the stand. There's nobody else around to testify to it, after all. If you're his lawyer, do you put him on?
― butvi wouls (Phil D.), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:39 (twelve years ago) link
he says "black, hispanic or white" iirc, sort of in the same tone of voice that you'd ask someone if they'd prefer fries or onion rings
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:41 (twelve years ago) link
emergency dispatchers have some kind of iron in their soul that i don't, respect
― goole, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:42 (twelve years ago) link
i don't necessarily mean his words from his lips, just his version of events - and yes, that likely presented by his lawyer
― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:43 (twelve years ago) link
good comma there goole
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:46 (twelve years ago) link
His lawyer cannot testify as to events, he can only ask questions. xp
― butvi wouls (Phil D.), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:47 (twelve years ago) link
― horseshoe, Tuesday, March 20, 2012 1:21 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
both these things are about white dudes' property, just to make it explicit
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:47 (twelve years ago) link
Adding: Opening and closing arguments are not testimony.
the irony that white people think black people are so scary when really black people are terrified of white people because look what happens.
This, this, a thousand times this.
― Axolotl with an Atlatl (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:48 (twelve years ago) link
Also, I think we all know what would have happened had Martin been armed and shot Zimmerman: He'd be in jail right now, any self-defense claim would be rejected, and they'd probably be preparing to try him as an adult and lock him up forever (or execute him) because of the vicious nature of the crime of gunning down a community leader who was trying to protect his neighbors.
― butvi wouls (Phil D.), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:49 (twelve years ago) link
going to go stare expressionlessly at the wall for 5 hours, brb
― TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:51 (twelve years ago) link
the right wing argument is, i believe, zimmerman is actually mexican so it can't be a hate crime.
― goole, Tuesday, March 20, 2012 12:44 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
i wrote something about this today and so far the right-wing comments/twitter reaction is "why didn't you specify zimmerman's race, eh?"
― max, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:52 (twelve years ago) link
goole knows his right wing
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:52 (twelve years ago) link
i mean even taking away the racial aspect for a second, it's still fucked beyond fucked that some huge dude shot an unarmed 17-year-old kid carrying a bag of skittles
― ffun. (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:54 (twelve years ago) link
or, deep in the comment weeds, there was an attack earlier this month by two black kids with gasoline on a white kid in kansas city, and "nobody in the liberal media cared", even though the cops a) considered it a hate crime and were b) investigating it! double standards!!
― goole, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:55 (twelve years ago) link
that was nice btw, max, your gawker piece. i don't know what to do with my feelings about this case, but that helped.
― horseshoe, Tuesday, 20 March 2012 17:57 (twelve years ago) link