Is this anti-semitism?

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I have said this other places but 'zionist' is not a word that needs to exist in contemporary political dialogue and anyone who uses it isn't just making a neutral argument, they're using a word w/ a lot of weird associations in 2012. the best way to say "I'm against the idea of a jewish state" is by saying "I'm against the idea of a jewish state"

iatee, Monday, 19 March 2012 15:12 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah this is fucked up. the killer successfully escaped too, hopefully they find him today. but what is there to say... 'hopefully he just picked a school at random to shoot at children and it just happened to be the jewish school'? there is ignorance and then there is being fucking deranged and evil.

--

france has become such an intolerant place in recent years and much of this election is being fought on anti-islam ideals of the right and I wonder if this has just spread over into general xenophobia, racism and hatred of anything different. Hopefully Sarkosy can fuck off and a more tolerant socialist government makes it (they are ahead in the polls iirc.) I don't think that would have anything to do with this, I just feel like venting.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 19 March 2012 15:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

There's a very strong suspicion that the killer is the same guy who killed some Foreign Legionnaires in Toulouse and Montauban recently.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 15:18 (2 years ago) Permalink

Unlikely that the shooter is a Sarkozy supporter, that's for sure.

the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Monday, 19 March 2012 15:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

Or if he is, I've got some news for him that's gonna make his head fuckin explode.

the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Monday, 19 March 2012 15:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

nah the kill-people right has its own party there

iatee, Monday, 19 March 2012 15:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

iatee, I think hurting is referring to the fact that Sarkozy's mother was Jewish (though a practicing Catholic).

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 15:23 (2 years ago) Permalink

I know that, I was just saying that it'd be extremely unlikely that he's supporting the moderate-right party regardless

iatee, Monday, 19 March 2012 15:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

Oh yeah, sorry I didn't mean to imply that. The French right (incl. the far right but also the current cunts) are cunts but I have no idea if they have anything to do with this cunt's sympathies.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 19 March 2012 15:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

Anyway, killing children is about as horrific a thing a person can do and I hope to hell they find this guy.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 19 March 2012 15:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

thx for that

the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Monday, 19 March 2012 15:29 (2 years ago) Permalink

I have said this other places but 'zionist' is not a word that needs to exist in contemporary political dialogue and anyone who uses it isn't just making a neutral argument, they're using a word w/ a lot of weird associations in 2012. the best way to say "I'm against the idea of a jewish state" is by saying "I'm against the idea of a jewish state"

otm and really can't be said enough. i think this is partially the point of norman finkelstein's interview with the BDS guy - if you're not upfront that you're against having a Jewish state, then you think you're getting away with something but you're just being transparently disingenuous. and if you're upfront that you're against having a Jewish state, then you're fucked bc that's not a popular position, which is why ppl aren't upfront about it.

Mordy, Monday, 19 March 2012 15:30 (2 years ago) Permalink

anyway, off-topic. news from france is terribly depressing and france obviously has a long history of anti-Semitism - Dreyfuss etc. when my parents went to France on vacation about a decade ago they told my dad not to wear his yarmulke in public but to keep it under a baseball cap or something. anyway, right after shabbos they were walking back to their hotel and he was wearing his yarmulke and ppl shouted "Juif" at them.

Mordy, Monday, 19 March 2012 15:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

france has become such an intolerant place in recent years

is this true? compared to what?

caek, Monday, 19 March 2012 16:09 (2 years ago) Permalink

are you kidding

the sir edmund hillary of sitting through pauly shore films (Shakey Mo Collier), Monday, 19 March 2012 16:13 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think "become" might be questionable -- it's always been a somewhat intolerant culture in general on many levels, not just in terms of religious/ethnic minorities.

the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Monday, 19 March 2012 16:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

friend of mine who works in France gets a lot of casual anti-Semitic stuff under the guise of "but why won't Jews respect French culture" - e.g. given a lecture on French "secularism" when he said actually he couldn't come in and do overtime since it was a Jewish holiday (as if they'd ask an xtian for overtime on Easter Sunday), or people telling him off because kosher butchery is ~so cruel~ (from the country that brings us foie gras), etc.

xp I don't think the kind of stuff he faces is particularly a recent development tbh

uh oh i'm having an emotion (c sharp major), Monday, 19 March 2012 16:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

there is a difference between white ppl anti-semitism in france and muslim anti-semitism in france

iatee, Monday, 19 March 2012 16:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

xpost yeah my sister-in-law who lived in france said that a lot of it is this refusal to understand why anyone would want to identify in any way as anything other than "French," coupled, ironically, with making it fairly difficult to assimilate.

the prurient pinterest (Hurting 2), Monday, 19 March 2012 16:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

yeah i'm saying that figuring what is going on with intolerance in france is complicated, and vague "woe is france" statements like "has become such an intolerant place" need clarification if you're going to tie them into an apparently crazy person with a gun shooting people

caek, Monday, 19 March 2012 16:20 (2 years ago) Permalink

i don't know that "intolerant" is the world. france has become a minefield of ethnic tension and antipathy.

Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Monday, 19 March 2012 16:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

what did france used to be, exactly

max, Monday, 19 March 2012 16:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

I think you maybe had less ethnic tension when you had fewer ethnicities?

s.clover, Monday, 19 March 2012 16:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

or rather when the ethnicities were confined to the colonies more, then the tension was in the colonies more?

s.clover, Monday, 19 March 2012 16:35 (2 years ago) Permalink

You know, when I vent you don't need to pick apart the exact language of it all.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 19 March 2012 16:40 (2 years ago) Permalink

what did france used to be, exactly

a bit less diverse, i.e., "for the french"

Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Monday, 19 March 2012 16:54 (2 years ago) Permalink

not to be "my irish ancestors had it rough" about this, because to be a jew or an algerian was always outside any ideological definition of what could be 'french', but "fewer ethnicities" strikes me as loose talk. gascons, bretons, occitan-speaking folx, basques, german alsatians, etc. the central/republican state kind of did a number on identities like that.

i wonder if the lingering blithe insistence on "secularism" and "french culture" doesn't speak to a suppressed knowledge that to be "french" means to take part in a constructed identity? i.e. to have something jewish or otherwise ahem mediterranean in you is something unconstructed, idk

this is like the only thing i know about france btw, thanks benedict anderson

goole, Monday, 19 March 2012 16:58 (2 years ago) Permalink

There's a vein of anti-semitism on the left in France that isn't comfortable with ethnic identity (or responds to French ethnic chauvinism by championing post-racist 'universal' identity politics) and isn't comfrotable with the religiosity of many French Jews. Add to that the widespread criticism of Israeli policies and it can get ugly. It's by no means helped by the anti-racist crowd having as its largest constituency North African muslims. There's populist 'traditional' Xtian anti-semitism and right-wing racist and ultra-Catholic anti-semitism though that has become a little more complicated since, similar to the American extreme right, parts of the French extreme right sometimes pretend to like Israel since it gives them a better place from whence to beat up on Islam and Arabs.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 16:59 (2 years ago) Permalink

also u know

Mordy, Monday, 19 March 2012 17:02 (2 years ago) Permalink

Yeah, goole, francity is an invention. During the ancien régime it was mostly aspirational and after the Revolution increasingly imposed by a more and more centralized State often in opposition to the old aristocracy and the Church.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:11 (2 years ago) Permalink

Dreyfuss wasn't all that religious, Mordy. The Right hated him for being Jewish not for practicing Judaism. If you really want to see the worst of anti-semitic bias in France, look to Drancy and Vel d'Hiv round-up, etc...

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:14 (2 years ago) Permalink

all identities are constructed. no more true of "frenchness" than anything else.

Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:15 (2 years ago) Permalink

xp I don't know what his level of religiosity has to do with... if anything it's a good indication that France anti-Semitism is not rooted in secularism so much as in historical anti-Semitism.

Mordy, Monday, 19 March 2012 17:16 (2 years ago) Permalink

I am totally pulling this out of nothing more than a motorcycle and a face tatoo but I suspect this guy is a white racist as much as an anti-zionist or whatever, esp if he is the same killer who shot the legionnaires last week.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

Like trying to explain French anti-Semitism as somehow being a result of French secularism, or French anti-religious sentiment is an attempt to elide historical trends in inexplicable French anti-Semitism that span political movements, cultural shifts, and chronicity.

Mordy, Monday, 19 March 2012 17:17 (2 years ago) Permalink

The kind of crypto-Monarchists who filled the general staff of the French Army during the Dreyfuss affair had as their special bugbears destroying the soul of France: Jews, Freemasons, Protestants and, of course, atheists.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:19 (2 years ago) Permalink

Like trying to explain French anti-Semitism as somehow being a result of French secularism, or French anti-religious sentiment is an attempt to elide historical trends in inexplicable French anti-Semitism that span political movements, cultural shifts, and chronicity.

^ otm

Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

is an attempt to elide historical trends

I'm not eliding it at all, merely pointing out newer expressions of anti-semitism in French culture that don't fit into the traditional, Catholic kind.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

I've heard ppl openly sneer at someone for sounding like he was from the Sentier (working-class area of Paris which had a large Jewish population) and even heard batshit things like Jaguars are a Jewish (and therefore uncool) vehicle. There's a lot of snobbery in white French anti-semitism but it's not that often that it turns murderous.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:25 (2 years ago) Permalink

historical trends in inexplicable French anti-Semitism that span political movements, cultural shifts, and chronicity.

what are these?

seems like contemporary french anti-semitism originates from several overlapping but not entirely related zones, the "ugh why can't you just be a normal agnostic french person" secular-chauvinist sentiment is just one of them

goole, Monday, 19 March 2012 17:27 (2 years ago) Permalink

start here, read down to bottom of the page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_France#Expulsions_and_returns

Mordy, Monday, 19 March 2012 17:31 (2 years ago) Permalink

i'm not sure that stuff is all that "inexplicable" - seems like a lot of power plays

TracerHandVEVO (Tracer Hand), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:34 (2 years ago) Permalink

thanks michel xp

Mordy, Monday, 19 March 2012 17:36 (2 years ago) Permalink

The police think our killer was not a 'pro'. He used a 9mm and then a 45 caliber after the first gun jammed.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 17:46 (2 years ago) Permalink

Our killer, if these can be linked, has killed 4 Jews, three Arabs and a black guy.

L'ennui, cette maladie de tous les (Michael White), Monday, 19 March 2012 18:21 (2 years ago) Permalink

Is there any reason to believe it's the same person behind all three?

Mordy, Monday, 19 March 2012 18:26 (2 years ago) Permalink

France only has one murderer at a time

thuggish ruggish Brahms (DJP), Monday, 19 March 2012 18:39 (2 years ago) Permalink

There's a very strong suspicion that the killer is the same guy who killed some Foreign Legionnaires in Toulouse and Montauban recently.

Really this statement is only interesting if you associate with the French criminal underground and they're speculating in whispers about who the killer is, and this is a Batman movie and Christian Bale is currently interrogating you.

Mordy, Monday, 19 March 2012 18:41 (2 years ago) Permalink


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