New Burial album. More info?

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Ned, you will never hear the sound of recorded crackling vinyl the same ever again. The humanity.

Mackro Mackro, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 03:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

I...I see a darkness.

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 03:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

tim i absolutely agree obv! i am just saying that i can see how the statistics can come to fog up people's glasses over in prolonged and wearying practice, is all. and yeah, plenty of great tunes have been made when outsiders have brought their own perspectives to the table. and usually the failures of foreign producers are down to an overthunk realness, too. uuuuunless of course they attain the prized rarity of the SUPER REAL that an indigenous type is too close to see - uh oh this is what p-cock is saying haha

r|t|c, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 03:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

i promise i've thought this position out over a long period of time, i'm not just making it up as i go along!

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 03:35 (6 years ago) Permalink

geir has been around forever also

deej, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 04:25 (6 years ago) Permalink

so many dudes on soulstrut think like this, its v. frustrating

deej, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 04:26 (6 years ago) Permalink

Having any kind of critical thought about the music is very refreshing after an hour or two of reading people in financial relationships with each other big each other up on the Dubstep forum.

Whoops, stepped back into the clusterfuck.

Siah Alan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 06:44 (6 years ago) Permalink

I'm surprised that more of those guys on Soulstrut aren't into deep house, you'd think the leap from J Dilla to Moodymann wouldn't be that huge.

Of course some of these guys still use the expression "new jack" as a diss, so the antipathy for house is only what 20 odd years old now?

Siah Alan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 06:48 (6 years ago) Permalink

there have been like 8 threads on moodymann there in the past couple months

deej, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 06:53 (6 years ago) Permalink

Alright I either need to stop half heartedly lurking, or show up when the good conversations are happening.

I thought I saw one maybe.

Apologies.

Siah Alan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 07:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

10 years ago somewhere:

"Having any kind of critical thought about the music is very refreshing after an hour or two of reading people in financial relationships with each other big each other up on the IDM forum.

Whoops, stepped back into the clusterfuck."

Mackro Mackro, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 07:11 (6 years ago) Permalink

There's a new artist on Warp - Flying Lotus Reset - who often sounds like he's saying "Do you see?!? Dilla and Moodymann are alike! DO YOU SEE?!?!" But he's not very good.

"but they were not doing the same things! the funny thing about it, is that there is no blanket statement for what makes a record great. it can be some arrangement, some melodic/harmonic composition, some mood, some atmosphere, some texture, etc etc etc. each one does it in its own combination of those elements."

Can I turn around and say !!!EXACTLY!!! Hence me asking you to refer to the actual music when describing why a record is good rather than sweep it all aside and say "oh that doesn't matter, this artist was a genius and had he made the tune with a tin can and a box of tissues it would still have been timeless! It was on Locked On, hence it was brilliant QED!"

"but what doesnt change is the fact that the people making them were somehow inspired to make something that was great and will remain so. unless you think it is all luck and randomness in a large group of peoples' perceptions?"

Why is the choice between eternal inspriation and luck/randomness?? Look at the Wideboys (who also had a single on Locked On) - during 2000 they were probably the most dominant producers in terms of club play and the stuff they made then still sounds amazing, really a kind of pinnacle for an aesthetic of ruthlessness that was still catchy. Within a few years, dismayed at their own lack of commercial success they were making precisely the sort of funky house that pollywog despises (compare and contrast the two versions of "Sambuca"). Now they're trying to have it both ways by setting themselves up as an alternative Freemasons on the one hand (with Rihanna as their Beyonce) and making Bassline tracks on the other. They're precisely the sort of producers who get cold-shouldered by pretty much any genius-focused approach to dance music, and yet, undeniably, their creative contribution to 2-step was as great as any other production team, up there with yer more typically canonised Steve Gurleys and El-Bs. Judging by their subsequent career parth we have to assume that there was a strong mercantile impulse to their 2-step garage period as well, but that doesn't change the brilliance of that music.

How to explain it? Perhaps it's not a case of "genius" as such. Perhaps it's a case of reasonably talented producers being in the right place at the right time and stumbling on a sound that worked marvellously, then exploiting that for as long as they could. In a scene that valued sonic novelty, that meant constantly pushing that sound further and further, until they exhausted its potential at some point in mid-2001 or so. An 18-month moment in the sun is not quite what hagiographies are made of, but tracing their work chronologically over that period makes for one of my favourite little sonic narratives ever.

"that is my point EXACTLY! and the point ive been trying to drive home here! you might not even be able to specify in words what is "wrong" with that kind of music, but you can hear that something ain't right. and the same is true for the good music!"

Actually, I'd say you can almost always specify what is "wrong" or "right" with a record, perhaps not exhaustively but certainly to the point of exhaustion - discussions about what is actually "right" or "wrong" with the music itself makes for most of the best discussions about music on ILM.

Possibly you're extrapolating from your own aversion to talking about music in and of itself, and elevating this inarticulate position to the level of a universal principle.

Tim F, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 07:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

Flying Lotus just did a back to back set with Kode 9 on Rinse.

Apparently he's also a big fan of Skream.

I can only hope that means his beats are going to move away from hiphop tempo.

Siah Alan, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 07:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

tim i would change this

you can almost always specify what is "wrong" or "right" with a record, perhaps not exhaustively but certainly to the point of exhaustion

to this

you can always almost specify what is "wrong" or "right" with a record, perhaps not exhaustively but certainly to the point of exhaustion

see what i did dere?

moonship journey to baja, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 07:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

"There's a new artist on Warp - Flying Lotus Reset - who often sounds like he's saying "Do you see?!? Dilla and Moodymann are alike! DO YOU SEE?!?!" But he's not very good."

hmm, i cant agree that he is not very good. he may not be at the level of those two artists, but that reset EP is the hot shit indeed. i get excited by new artists very infrequently (this is why i do most of my record shopping in used shops to get older stuff!) but he has my ear now, for sure.

"Can I turn around and say !!!EXACTLY!!! Hence me asking you to refer to the actual music when describing why a record is good rather than sweep it all aside and say "oh that doesn't matter, this artist was a genius and had he made the tune with a tin can and a box of tissues it would still have been timeless! It was on Locked On, hence it was brilliant QED!""

but not every Locked On release was timelessly classic, even though the likelihood of one of their records being timelessly classic was pretty high. when a label knows what theyre doing, they can be trusted because there is someone there making good musical decisions. this is why carl craig is so good, he not only has made 20 years of awesome music, but his label has put out tons and tons of awesome material by other artists. this is not luck, carl craig is one of the best musicians of the past 30 years bar none.

"Why is the choice between eternal inspriation and luck/randomness?? Look at the Wideboys (who also had a single on Locked On) - during 2000 they were probably the most dominant producers in terms of club play and the stuff they made then still sounds amazing, really a kind of pinnacle for an aesthetic of ruthlessness that was still catchy. They're precisely the sort of producers who get cold-shouldered by pretty much any genius-focused approach to dance music, and yet, undeniably, their creative contribution to 2-step was as great as any other production team, up there with yer more typically canonised Steve Gurleys and El-Bs. Judging by their subsequent career parth we have to assume that there was a strong mercantile impulse to their 2-step garage period as well, but that doesn't change the brilliance of that music."

hey, i cant tell you what the attitudes of people since 2-step are all about, but the Wideboys were and are one of my top 5 2-step producers. i probably have more records by them than by almost anyone else simply due to their prolific nature. "sambucca" and the first 4 editions of "garage jams" are always getting play when i dig through my 2-step, and their remix work was wonderful as well. why arent they getting the love? could it be because music critics dont know shit and werent paying attention when these records were coming out? i have no idea, really.

"How to explain it? Perhaps it's not a case of "genius" as such. Perhaps it's a case of reasonably talented producers being in the right place at the right time and stumbling on a sound that worked marvellously, then exploiting that for as long as they could. In a scene that valued sonic novelty, that meant constantly pushing that sound further and further, until they exhausted its potential at some point in mid-2001 or so. An 18-month moment in the sun is not quite what hagiographies are made of, but tracing their work chronologically over that period makes for one of my favourite little sonic narratives ever."

the problem obviously arose when they had to move onto making things that had more commercial potential (and by that i mean they would shift more copies than 2-step which essentially hit a brick wall in early 02 as it splintered off...). who knows what kind of great material they could have continued to make if they didnt have that ridiculous outside pressure? this is why i had to give up on the "hardcore continuum" music, i thought the pressure to change sound essentially handcuffed artists into making bad records. look at photek, how does one go from being so fantastic to being so derivative? the man needed to get paid.

"Possibly you're extrapolating from your own aversion to talking about music in and of itself, and elevating this inarticulate position to the level of a universal principle.

-- Tim F"

it's not that it is inarticulate, it is unarticulable. reading the pseudo-prose reviews that some people seem to like for records makes me feel physically ill, and that is probably the best way to try to describe art! i like to try to discuss the intangibles without trying to over dissect the music itself. the over intellectualisation of music is what led to IDM and bad prog rock, im not really into that.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 13:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

So how explicit are the lyrics on this thing? Strange question I know, but only the "clean" version is available on iTunes plus and I'm really hesitant to get this because of that. Will the "clean" edits really destroy the listening experience? I'd obviously prefer to never buy "clean" versions, but I'm not having any luck finding this thing in shops over here and I'd love to buy it.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 14:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

An absence of flavour isn't a necessary outcome of some sort of metaphysical relationship to the streets, it's a contingent musical outcome based on the choices a producer makes. I'd have no idea whether Burial is more or less street than other dubstep producers, other 2-step producers. Why should that form some potential barrier to the possibility of his music being good? The above quote implies that there is some sort of customs that the music has to pass through on the way from the record towards your ears where the artist has to prove their credentials before anything you hear in their music can be taken seriously.

Why on earth is every single discussion about dubstep so obsessed by such things? Why must even ILM discussions of dubstep end up mimicking tiresomely the same issues that are obsessed over in Dissensus discussions?

Huh Tim, you missed my point. My fault, I wasn't clear. See I was actually trying to pin you with exactly what you accuse me of: priviledging the real, authentic, indigenous etc. Two things you said stand out. In the quote that you OTM'd above, the poster said Burial is bleaching, whitening, the 'real' sound. And the most pernicious statement was the thing about the rudeboy 'flava/cheese' axis (tho I admit I don't quite understand what cheese and flava represent there, could you explain or direct me to the appropriate reynolds). You say that Burial lacks some trace of old 2-step: some femininity, some functionalism, some roughness. These are all musical, material deficits, true (but it would help me if you explained where you see this lack in Burial's sound in particular); but they are all also obviously code for street. So if Burial IS white/well-educated, it would make sense that he can't get to these things. But if we carry this to the logical conclusion, we end up saying 'well-educated white people shouldn't make grime/dubstep/4x4/speed garage' which is obvi problematic.

And theres another thing: in some of your posts you seem to suggest a thinly-veiled hostility to anything that even opens itself up to appropriation by naive middle class, um, pipecock-style cult of genius (which is: anything that looks like it has pretensions to 'meaning', 'depth', Art, etc.) I'm sure you wouldn't want to say this exactly. Maybe you could explain your opinion on this score?

walter benjamin, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:20 (6 years ago) Permalink

I need to clear up one thing from above. when Tim says that 'an absence of flavour is a contingent musical outcome based on the choices a producer makes', thats exactly what I'm disputing. The flavour you cite (feminine, rough, rudeboy etc.) is all explicitly coded as street; and you said that this lack of flavour is part of a larger lack of appreciation, for an element which was in the music BEFORE. If Burial hasn't picked up on this element, is it a decision of an autonomous subject, or is it the result of social situation, the question of 'who' 'Burial' is? ANd conversely, are you reading in these lacks precisely because Burial is always coded white, and so you already expect his music to lack all these things? I'm not hostile, I just need you to clarify.

walter benjamin, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 16:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

Most interesting thing about flying lotus is that he's related to Alice Coltrane.

jim, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 18:15 (6 years ago) Permalink

So how explicit are the lyrics on this thing? Strange question I know, but only the "clean" version is available on iTunes plus and I'm really hesitant to get this because of that. Will the "clean" edits really destroy the listening experience? I'd obviously prefer to never buy "clean" versions, but I'm not having any luck finding this thing in shops over here and I'd love to buy it.

The lyrics sort of wash over me on this disc. They're important, but more for the mood they help create than their actual contents. What I do pick up is repeated, vague snippets, e.g., "Holding you. . . Loving you . . . Kissing you . . . Tell me I belong" (Archangel) and "I can't take my eyes off you" (Near Dark).

I don't recall any "dirty" lyrics or "bad" words on the disc. If they are there, I wouldn't want to mess with the disc's integrity by getting the "clean" version, but I just don't think it matters in this case. But maybe someone's heard something on the disc I haven't.

Daniel, Esq., Tuesday, 20 November 2007 18:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

Thanks for the info. I just thought it was really weird that this, of all albums, would have such a distinction with only the "clean" version available.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 18:30 (6 years ago) Permalink

Within a few years, dismayed at their own lack of commercial success they were making precisely the sort of funky house that pollywog despises

...actually i i like funky house. It among other genres makes a nice break from listening to oppressive dubstep all the time

and most of my d'n'b dj/ mates/producers never really got the 2step swing and were not into garage. The ones who have tried dubstep end up making plodding digidubstep over half time beats with cliched ragga samples...

pollywog, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 19:45 (6 years ago) Permalink

Burial's upcoming single "Trivial Cumulus Clouds"

Mackro Mackro, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 20:07 (6 years ago) Permalink

"And theres another thing: in some of your posts you seem to suggest a thinly-veiled hostility to anything that even opens itself up to appropriation by naive middle class, um, pipecock-style cult of genius (which is: anything that looks like it has pretensions to 'meaning', 'depth', Art, etc.) I'm sure you wouldn't want to say this exactly. Maybe you could explain your opinion on this score?

-- walter benjamin"

i'm not middle class, so that is interesting. aside from that, pretensions of things are meaningless, the amount of "artists" who try that out is huge. the only thing that matters is the final result. and there is nothing naive about that.

pipecock, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 21:55 (6 years ago) Permalink

PIEPKLOK OTM

W4LTER, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

OTMOTMOTMOTM.

W4LTER, Tuesday, 20 November 2007 22:16 (6 years ago) Permalink

“Huh Tim, you missed my point. My fault, I wasn't clear. See I was actually trying to pin you with exactly what you accuse me of: priviledging the real, authentic, indigenous etc. Two things you said stand out. In the quote that you OTM'd above, the poster said Burial is bleaching, whitening, the 'real' sound. And the most pernicious statement was the thing about the rudeboy 'flava/cheese' axis (tho I admit I don't quite understand what cheese and flava represent there, could you explain or direct me to the appropriate reynolds). You say that Burial lacks some trace of old 2-step: some femininity, some functionalism, some roughness. These are all musical, material deficits, true (but it would help me if you explained where you see this lack in Burial's sound in particular); but they are all also obviously code for street. So if Burial IS white/well-educated, it would make sense that he can't get to these things. But if we carry this to the logical conclusion, we end up saying 'well-educated white people shouldn't make grime/dubstep/4x4/speed garage' which is obvi problematic.”

I don’t think Titchy referred to Burial being white, or to him changing the “real” sound of 2-step. He said that Burial was “gentrifying” the music by removing “embarrassing” elements. But an anti-gentrification position (if titchy or myself were to take such a position – I don’t) does not automatically equate to pro-authenticity. What I think both of us were referring to here are how certain sounds are received by audiences: xylophone basslines and hype MC’ing and obvious samples from other big hits aren’t necessarily techniques of “realness”, but they are often received as being cheesy – in a manner not substantially dissimilar to the way euro-pop or Ibiza trance are received as being cheesy (and you don’t see Dissensus-style nu-rockism defending the realness of these genres).

I’d admit the cheesiness of 2-step was coded by its status as “urban” or “street” music, in terms of the specific forms this cheesiness took – we tend to associate MCs, for example, with all of these notions. But this shouldn’t necessarily be an obstacle for white middleclass producers. When I say “rudeboy” it could as much refer to Basement Jaxx’s “Jump & Shout” as any 2-step track – certainly there’s an implication that the music draws from influences traditionally considered to black, but white producers deploying “black” signifiers has a history as old as electronic music itself.

Anyway, this gentrification in Burial isn’t a bad thing – it’s his point of difference and is what makes him interesting. I just think it prevents him from being held up as some inheritor to the “hardcore continuum” – based on my understanding of what that term means. So I was disputing the narrative that some people adopt unquestioningly when discussing his music.

Also, I think we should attempt to be specific about Burial’s music vis a vis dubstep generally. Burial does not suffer from a deficit of femininity; conversely, there’s a lot of dubstep that is perfectly “rough” and “functional”. There’s quite a distinction between the estrangement of Burial from “proper” 2-step and that of dubstep.

I’ll see if I can dig up some Reynolds links. He has often previously made the point that some of the “blackest” sounding jungle often came from white, even middle-class producers – and the reverse often holds true as well (e.g. 4 Hero as standard-bearers for jungle’s gentrification).

“And theres another thing: in some of your posts you seem to suggest a thinly-veiled hostility to anything that even opens itself up to appropriation by naive middle class, um, pipecock-style cult of genius (which is: anything that looks like it has pretensions to 'meaning', 'depth', Art, etc.) I'm sure you wouldn't want to say this exactly. Maybe you could explain your opinion on this score?”

I love heaps of music that tends to get swamped in this cult-of-genius approach (e.g. I like a lot of Pipecock’s cultural touchstones – Theo Parrish etc.). I just think that it inevitably suppresses (as in denies the existence of) or rejects (as in deems beneath discussion) the aspects of music or the experience of music that don’t fit its rigid explanations as to how and why music works. This is almost as damaging to the way in which we think and talk about Theo Parrish as it is to the way in which we think and talk about La Bouche. And it’s not damaging in the first instance because it’s wrong, precisely, but because it’s partial and distorted and leads to lazy, clichéd thinking. The meaninglessness of a lot of the prattle surrounding Burial is testament to this. But it doesn’t mean Burial doesn’t make great music at least occasionally.

“I need to clear up one thing from above. when Tim says that 'an absence of flavour is a contingent musical outcome based on the choices a producer makes', thats exactly what I'm disputing. The flavour you cite (feminine, rough, rudeboy etc.) is all explicitly coded as street; and you said that this lack of flavour is part of a larger lack of appreciation, for an element which was in the music BEFORE. If Burial hasn't picked up on this element, is it a decision of an autonomous subject, or is it the result of social situation, the question of 'who' 'Burial' is? ANd conversely, are you reading in these lacks precisely because Burial is always coded white, and so you already expect his music to lack all these things? I'm not hostile, I just need you to clarify.”

I hadn’t realised people were assuming Burial was white. Is he? And the fact that he doesn’t employ what I’m referring to as “rudeboy” sounds could be for a host of reasons. Most likely he does appreciate “proper” 2-step, and has a sense of how and why that music works. All I’m disputing is that his music can legitimately be characterised as an “elegy” for the “hardcore continuum” – it seems a step too far given the actual sound of the music.

By way of analogy: I tend to think that techstep drum & bass (a lot of which I adore, at least the early stuff) purged a lot of these elements from the prior jungle sound(s). What was behind this move? A lot of this music was made by the same producers who’d been making the pre-existing jungle. Was it conscious choice, a shift in audience, people simply tiring of what reminded them of the previous years’ sounds and looking for something new, change in drug habits, change in musical gear… Or perhaps all of these things.

Tim F, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 01:23 (6 years ago) Permalink

So anyway I'm listening to it and my favorite part is the distorted "This is a Hyperdub promo" voice every two minutes.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 03:38 (6 years ago) Permalink

"He said that Burial was “gentrifying” the music by removing “embarrassing” elements. "

They may not be the 'embarassing' elements that fit your theory Tim but this album feels crammed with cheesiness, via its over the top emotion, r&b samples etc

bass, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 09:14 (6 years ago) Permalink

Don't you think ukg gentrified itself a while ago, which is part of the reason grime and dubstep emerged? I kind of agree with this article
http://www.riddim.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=104&Itemid=37

bass, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 10:19 (6 years ago) Permalink

...I like the style council

pollywog, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 11:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

pollywog, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 11:18 (6 years ago) Permalink

No, that article was actually entire off the mark! But then K-Punk has never been shy about making sweeping pronouncements based on a dearth of evidence! I remember reading it at the time and being utterly puzzled. At first I thought he must have just listened to a bad compilation, but have you seen the tracklisting for that comp?? It totally sounds nothing like the way he describes it! Tellingly, Mark doesn't actually refer to a single bad track in the entire article. I think he just imagines all these bad 2-step trakcs and proceeds to skewer them for their hypothetical flaws. Which is a very convenient argumentative strategy.

The article is partially correct in that there was a massive overload of perfunctory remixes of US r&b tracks floating around in 2001, and this meant that you were perhaps more likely to stumble across boring tracks than previously. But if you look at the best tracks of that year garage was almost as strong as in 1999-2000, I'd say. And while I liked both So Solid Crew/K2 Family/Pay As U Go etc. and Horsepower Productions/El-B at the time, even had the proto-grime and proto-dubstep not been around it still would have been a thrilling year, thanks to stuff by Sticky, Ed Case, Zed Bias, DND, Masterstepz, Bump & Flex. Crucially though, all the dubstep was definitely a more gentrified version of 2-step than any actual normal 2-step was!

The funny thing about the notion of a generational split between soulful garage and dark garage/proto-grime is that for the most part the "soulful garage" movement was imaginary. The standard-bearer for this movement was supposed to be TJ Cases, owing to his gorgeous 2000 track "Dedicated To Love". But actually listen to Cases' 2001 productions "One By One" and "I Like To Cut, I Like To Play" - yes, they still have divas, but they're some of the roughest 2-step tracks you'll hear, the basslines and beats on those tracks are simply slamming (they're like the Eric Morillo of 2-step, maybe).

Pick up any random 2-step compilation from that time and you'll find a remarkable dearth of soulful garage tracks. What you will find are the following:

- lots of good stuff that sounds like 2000 garage except the beats got even screwier
- some good breakbeat garage tracks and then a fair few bad ones
- quite a few jolly MC tracks
- a few uninspiring remixes of US R&B tracks (although these struggled to make it onto the good compilations - whereas even the best DJs seemed to have a weakness for at least one bad breakbeat garage track)
- Mike Dunn's "God Made Me Phunky"

... Which leads me to conclude that the only people who can seriously think that garage in 2001 was gentrified are people who only bought the artist albums from Wookie, MJ Cole and the Artful Dodger.

A bit like trying to summarise jungle circa 1996 based on Logical Progression alone.

Tim F, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 12:58 (6 years ago) Permalink

One other point to note perhaps is that garage producers did become less inclined to fuck with and cut up the vocals, and instead let them run largely unmolested throughout the track. But while this is partly due to a stronger alignment with R&B/hip hop (away from house and its more tenuous relationship to songfulness), there was another good reason for it: as the tracks became harder and rougher in their production, and the amount of MC'ing escalated massively, having a full female vocal became an important counterweight - by 2001 the pop-diva was assuming a much greater share in maintaining the femininity of the genre, as the music's house roots became less obviously apparent.

I wrote a great deal more about why 2001 was a great year for garage here if you're interested.

Tim F, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 13:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

"They may not be the 'embarassing' elements that fit your theory Tim but this album feels crammed with cheesiness, via its over the top emotion, r&b samples etc"

Yeah I'm pleased that he's fucking with vocals more. But Burial's over-the-top emotion (which I also like) is closer to corny indie fuxxiness than it is to cheesiness. It's DJ Shadow cheesy rather than Will Smith cheesy.

Tim F, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 13:12 (6 years ago) Permalink

'Raver' in my head on loop today. Reminds me of Luomo and Akufen stuff more than anything else.

blueski, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 13:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

"The funny thing about the notion of a generational split between soulful garage and dark garage/proto-grime is that for the most part the "soulful garage" movement was imaginary.

-- Tim F"

no way, don't you remember the sudden influx of 4 on the floor housey type garage in 01? EZ's record, Tuff Jam's stuff from that time, Qualifide, etc etc. by the end of that year i was buying almost as much 4 on the floor stuff as jams with the 2-steppy beat no matter which end of the split it was on. a bunch of the deejays (iirc it was dream team and some other cats) decided to start playing more soulful, it didnt catch the media hype perhaps but it was a definite part of the movement that led to the path to funky house being an urban UK thing.

pipecock, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 13:32 (6 years ago) Permalink

"'Raver' in my head on loop today. Reminds me of Luomo and Akufen stuff more than anything else.

-- blueski"

sounds to me almost like pepe braddock's "burning" done in a "cheval" stylee. very pepe.

pipecock, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 13:33 (6 years ago) Permalink

"no way, don't you remember the sudden influx of 4 on the floor housey type garage in 01? EZ's record, Tuff Jam's stuff from that time, Qualifide, etc etc. by the end of that year i was buying almost as much 4 on the floor stuff as jams with the 2-steppy beat no matter which end of the split it was on. a bunch of the deejays (iirc it was dream team and some other cats) decided to start playing more soulful, it didnt catch the media hype perhaps but it was a definite part of the movement that led to the path to funky house being an urban UK thing."

This movement was pretty small in 2001 though, and didn't really heat up until 2-step started transforming into grime over the course of 2002 (with "Pulse X" etc.). I was trying to obliquely reference it with my mention of Mike Dunn. Even The Dreem Teem were somewhat half-hearted about it, it seemed a bigger deal than it was because of the controversy over So Solid Crew and generational change.

In fact, 4X4 garage wasn't suddenly revived in 2001, this was happening in 2000 as well - remember tunes like Zack Toms' "Bring Me Down", Wideboys' "Westside" and "Stand & Deliver", Dominic B's "Going Round"... As for Tuff Jam, did they ever really change their sound from speed garage in the first place? Matt Lamont didn't even really start making 2-step beats until 2001! And his best 4X4 stuff from 2001/2002 was with El-B!

Not to mention the fact that the 4X4 was revived in the hard 'n' dark end of the scene as well - DJ Narrows for example, and let's not forget Blazing Squad's first hit before they became a boy band (esp. great with Elephant Man on the vocals).

So yeah there was a rise in 4/4 stuff around this time, but I think this development was more about a general nostalgia for speed garage (in both its soulful and ruff forms) than a desire to gentrify 2-step.

Tim F, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 13:56 (6 years ago) Permalink

I reckon the Cyrus album is better than Untrue. There. Do I win £5?

Martian Economics, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 16:17 (6 years ago) Permalink

even when he's arguing w/ 'pipecock' i'd rather read Tim's writing than 90% of ilx

deej, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 16:28 (6 years ago) Permalink

You got that right.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 16:29 (6 years ago) Permalink

i caught most of this thread after the fireworks, but here are some thoughts.

if burial made a hardcore record, would that turn the continuum into a loop? it reminds me of MT's comment that nothing ever really changes.

what do people think of the skull disco comp?

breaks-based music exhausted itself for me awhile back, but i love the way it sounds in cassy's panorama bar mix i.e., it creates such a nice tension and hypes up the mix without sounding forced.

i don't buy the genius theory because it's too close to fundamentalism and art is way more dirty than that.

tricky, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 16:43 (6 years ago) Permalink

"what do people think of the skull disco comp?"

bores me to tears.

"breaks-based music exhausted itself for me awhile back, but i love the way it sounds in cassy's panorama bar mix i.e., it creates such a nice tension and hypes up the mix without sounding forced."

i like music with sampled drums in general, but in terms of a "break" sounding sampled drum beat, im really feeling carl craig's remix of tony allen.

"i don't buy the genius theory because it's too close to fundamentalism and art is way more dirty than that.

-- tricky"

how exactly is it close to fundamentalism? how is music something other than an artist expressing himself?

pipecock, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 16:52 (6 years ago) Permalink

"how exactly is it close to fundamentalism? how is music something other than an artist expressing himself?"

Haha howzabout a million ways.

Alex in SF, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 16:57 (6 years ago) Permalink

xpost, well, that's exactly it. i mean, what else is there to say if all you say is "how is music something other than an artist expressing himself?". i am very sympathetic to that view, but for me it is a jumping off point. it's like conflating effects with causes because at the end music is a very personal experience that everyone experiences a little bit differently. that's one of the reasons why we are here on this board i'd imagine.

i love CC's "straight mix" of tony allen. the subtle changes and brokenness in the breaks from bar to bar is so elegant!

tricky, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 17:09 (6 years ago) Permalink

the thing i don't get about pipecock is its not just that he's saying "the best way to understand art is as an expression of an artist" but that "the ONLY way to understand art is as an expression of the artist," like he seems totally unaware that there is an art to reception

deej, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 17:47 (6 years ago) Permalink

"This movement was pretty small in 2001 though, and didn't really heat up until 2-step started transforming into grime over the course of 2002 (with "Pulse X" etc.). I was trying to obliquely reference it with my mention of Mike Dunn. Even The Dreem Teem were somewhat half-hearted about it, it seemed a bigger deal than it was because of the controversy over So Solid Crew and generational change."

i mean, the seeds of grime were already heavily present in 01, as were the seeds of dubstep and the 4 on the floor revolution. "battle of the mc's", "envy", etc were all sort of the almost hiphop tracks over a tough garage beat.

"In fact, 4X4 garage wasn't suddenly revived in 2001, this was happening in 2000 as well - remember tunes like Zack Toms' "Bring Me Down", Wideboys' "Westside" and "Stand & Deliver", Dominic B's "Going Round"... As for Tuff Jam, did they ever really change their sound from speed garage in the first place? Matt Lamont didn't even really start making 2-step beats until 2001! And his best 4X4 stuff from 2001/2002 was with El-B!"

yeah, the El-Tuff stuff (which was what i meant when i said "tuff jam", crack rules) was super ill, but it was definitely part of a larger movement towards that sound. i guess none of these subgenres was really established in 01, but that was when the initial tensions that led to their separation really began.

"Not to mention the fact that the 4X4 was revived in the hard 'n' dark end of the scene as well - DJ Narrows for example, and let's not forget Blazing Squad's first hit before they became a boy band (esp. great with Elephant Man on the vocals)."

sure, narrows and stuff like some of the 4 on the floor harry lime stuff was on the darkside, but i think they were kind of on the very fringes of what would be the usual "2-step scene" in general, even though some of the tunes crossed over ("grouch", "saved soul", etc) into the more mainstream 2-step world.

"So yeah there was a rise in 4/4 stuff around this time, but I think this development was more about a general nostalgia for speed garage (in both its soulful and ruff forms) than a desire to gentrify 2-step.

-- Tim F"

the thing that i think differentiates the 4 on the floor stuff from speed garage is the basslines, the 01 era stuff didnt have the dread bass lines almost at all, it was much more bouncy and house oriented. i dont think it was an effort to "gentrify" 2-step, on the contrary it was more like a "going back to our roots to rediscover our identity" movement.

pipecock, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 18:06 (6 years ago) Permalink

"the thing i don't get about pipecock is its not just that he's saying "the best way to understand art is as an expression of an artist" but that "the ONLY way to understand art is as an expression of the artist," like he seems totally unaware that there is an art to reception

-- deej"

but the reception is where all the flaws in the communication come in. if you enjoy trying to converse with someone in a foreign language without understanding what theyre saying just because it sounds nice to your ears, i guess that works for you. i prefer to understand the language.

pipecock, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 18:13 (6 years ago) Permalink

that only works if you conceive of music as a method of communication

max, Wednesday, 21 November 2007 18:16 (6 years ago) Permalink


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